David Jacobs' BJJGround Does training No Gi make you the best No Gi?

Edited: 2/11/19 1:15 AM
12/1/00
Posts: 17044
I know this topic has been done to death- but hear me out.

To me, there is this annoying fascination that the no gi game is so much different that the gi game, the meta game is different, etc...imo what ultimately wins in the long run is just good grappling- strong takedowns, sweeps, guard passing, back takes, chokes and armlocks- not your fancy honeyhole/411 subs.

This has all been said to death- but here's my new controversial statement - in my opinion, 10th planet, John Danaher's DDS, etc- they all could have been just as successful in no gi competition if they implemented gi training as well as no gi training.

10th Planet started in 2003, and brought over 70+ competitors to this past weekends ADCC West Coast trials...like the East Coast trials that followed several months earlier, they did not have a winner.

John Danaher's squad- I give them the upmost respect, and think John is a genius with his different coherent BJJ systems- but he has also been teaching in NYC since at I started there in 2000 and took his beginner classes at Renzo's. He has produced and helped many amazing grapplers and UFC fighters- but it wasnt until Gordon won ADCC in 2017, has John produced an ADCC winner. Yes, you could say he hasn't really had competitors until recently- but the fact is, he's also been teaching in one of the most populated city for 17 years before producing a No Gi World Champ.

I honestly, think, had all these guys split up there competitor's time and trained in the gi as well, they probably could have reached the same amount of success as they have had since 2003 (for 10th planet), and 2000 (for Danaher).

JT Torres and Felipe Pena both won ADCC in 2017. They both did not even start training BJJ until at least 2003-2005- well after 10th planet and Danaher started teaching. Why did they succeed at the highest levels? Was their No Gi meta game so different than their gi game? How is there honeyhole/heel hook game?

My opinion is just that- and I'm sure many people will think I'm a hater of 10th planet or of heel hooks, but until ADCC 2019 proves me wrong, I still stand by my "archaic" beliefs.

PS- And, I do not think any strictly no gi competitor- 10th planet or DDS will win at ADCC this year (if Gordon doesn't compete that is). But, I'm always happy to be proven wrong.

tl;dr - Train gi to get good at no gi. There isn't proof that no gi specialists are better at no gi.
2/11/19 9:49 AM
5/28/02
Posts: 11604

How many gi players have won ADCC vs primarily no gi players?

 

How many primarily no gi players have won a gi IBJJF World title?

Edited: 2/11/19 12:00 PM
2/9/09
Posts: 8580
baby-silverback -

How many gi players have won ADCC vs primarily no gi players?

 

How many primarily no gi players have won a gi IBJJF World title?

I think ADCC was pretty much ran by mainly Gi guys.

 

I look up to the guys who do both, vs the ones that specialize in one thing. JT, Keenan, MG. Over the Gordon Ryans etc. not hating on Gordon or the DDS.

 

what I wanna know is which is better having a game thats gi/no gi like MG or like Keenan which couldn’t be more different 

2/11/19 12:06 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17045
I agree- in the older ADCC's, it was mostly all gi players that even competed.

However, if the no gi game is that different- we should have seen a dramatic shift in the winners in recent ADCC's- certainly by 2013, 2015, and 2017- and we have not...it's still won by people who split their training time (except for Ryan)
2/11/19 12:45 PM
2/9/09
Posts: 8581
kying418 - I agree- in the older ADCC's, it was mostly all gi players that even competed.

However, if the no gi game is that different- we should have seen a dramatic shift in the winners in recent ADCC's- certainly by 2013, 2015, and 2017- and we have not...it's still won by people who split their training time (except for Ryan)

Also aside from Ryan I believe he’s the only person to win a major tournament (coming from only training one style) out of all the teams

2/11/19 1:21 PM
10/23/09
Posts: 3266

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

2/11/19 1:50 PM
2/9/09
Posts: 8582
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

Who is that?

2/11/19 2:31 PM
10/23/09
Posts: 3267
The Closed Guard -
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

Who is that?

Felipe Pena?

2/11/19 2:45 PM
5/28/02
Posts: 11605
Muffinho -
The Closed Guard -
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

Who is that?

Felipe Pena?

Yes, but bjj math doesn't always add up. Plus,  I believe there's always going to be that one guy who has your number. However it works, a tiny miscalculation means a loss. Strategy means a lot & other variables. Either way, I like watching jiu jitsu in whatever rule set 

2/11/19 3:12 PM
10/23/09
Posts: 3268
baby-silverback -
Muffinho -
The Closed Guard -
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

Who is that?

Felipe Pena?

Yes, but bjj math doesn't always add up. Plus,  I believe there's always going to be that one guy who has your number. However it works, a tiny miscalculation means a loss. Strategy means a lot & other variables. Either way, I like watching jiu jitsu in whatever rule set 

It's not really BJJ math. Felipe Pena beat Gordon twice. Submitted him in one, and took his back in the other. Felipe Pena trains primarily in the gi. In the same tournament, Gordon failed to score on Dillon Danis (lol?) and Xande Ribiero. While Xande is a fucking legend, he was 36 at the time. 

Edited: 2/11/19 3:27 PM
2/9/09
Posts: 8583
Muffinho -
baby-silverback -
Muffinho -
The Closed Guard -
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

Who is that?

Felipe Pena?

Yes, but bjj math doesn't always add up. Plus,  I believe there's always going to be that one guy who has your number. However it works, a tiny miscalculation means a loss. Strategy means a lot & other variables. Either way, I like watching jiu jitsu in whatever rule set 

It's not really BJJ math. Felipe Pena beat Gordon twice. Submitted him in one, and took his back in the other. Felipe Pena trains primarily in the gi. In the same tournament, Gordon failed to score on Dillon Danis (lol?) and Xande Ribiero. While Xande is a fucking legend, he was 36 at the time. 

Gotta kinda agree. You have a guy training 365 in one specific aspect of BJJ against another who only trains a small percentage in that aspect and his 2-0 against him. Pretty solid outcome

 

If you think about it DDS/10P doesn’t have the best record in major bjj tournaments

2/11/19 3:49 PM
4/27/18
Posts: 552
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

That’s exactly one data point and it’s been a while. I doubt the outcome would be the same today.

Time will tell though.

Edited: 2/11/19 4:31 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 6658
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

https://youtu.be/vGsVmUVdroU

 

Barnett never trained in a gi period. You cant go by one example and set a rule.

 

My take on gi vs nogi in sport is this. The best grappling competitors have all trained in a gi regularly at some point with a few exceptions like Gordon Ryan and Josh Barnett. The best grapplers are going to win. The best grapplers are not the best because of the gi imo. It just so happens that grappling in the gi is very common so of course they have trained in the gi at some point. Nothing about the gi gave anyone an advantage over Gordon though or if it did then Gordon must really be the king because he became the best without the secret ingrediant to getting good at grappling. 

 

Imagine if nogi grappling was the popular way to grapple and all the competitions were nogi and then someone came along trying to sell everyone a gi and they marketed on the idea that training while wearing the right clothing would increase your nogi grappling making it become much better. LMAO  I mean that is the ideology that gi proponents have bought into. 

2/11/19 5:34 PM
2/19/18
Posts: 49
Calhoon - 
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

https://youtu.be/vGsVmUVdroU

 

Barnett never trained in a gi period. You cant go by one example and set a rule.

 

My take on gi vs nogi in sport is this. The best grappling competitors have all trained in a gi regularly at some point with a few exceptions like Gordon Ryan and Josh Barnett. The best grapplers are going to win. The best grapplers are not the best because of the gi imo. It just so happens that grappling in the gi is very common so of course they have trained in the gi at some point. Nothing about the gi gave anyone an advantage over Gordon though or if it did then Gordon must really be the king because he became the best without the secret ingrediant to getting good at grappling. 

 

Imagine if nogi grappling was the popular way to grapple and all the competitions were nogi and then someone came along trying to sell everyone a gi and they marketed on the idea that training while wearing the right clothing would increase your nogi grappling making it become much better. LMAO  I mean that is the ideology that gi proponents have bought into. 


Gordon competed in the Gi until at least Purple belt, may have trained in the Gi longer. Danaher still teaches a majority Gi classes. Gordon's got a heavy Gi influence and it shows in his game.

Barnett had trained in the Gi, had a decent Judo background minimum. What he did was impressive but he had significant size advantage, let's see him against Buchecha or Rodolfo in the Gi.
2/11/19 5:58 PM
2/28/03
Posts: 47320
kying418 - I agree- in the older ADCC's, it was mostly all gi players that even competed.

However, if the no gi game is that different- we should have seen a dramatic shift in the winners in recent ADCC's- certainly by 2013, 2015, and 2017- and we have not...it's still won by people who split their training time (except for Ryan)

This is your strongest point 

2/11/19 6:48 PM
10/21/12
Posts: 132

 

2/11/19 6:53 PM
10/21/12
Posts: 133

I think it's as simple as predominantly gi players make up the vastly larger pool of competitors. It kinda skews your examples if the grappling community isn't split more evenly when it comes to training in only one or the other. I personally think just grappling with quality instruction and training partners produces quality grapplers no matter what they're wearing. 

2/11/19 6:54 PM
10/21/12
Posts: 134
Calhoon -
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

https://youtu.be/vGsVmUVdroU

 

Barnett never trained in a gi period. You cant go by one example and set a rule.

 

My take on gi vs nogi in sport is this. The best grappling competitors have all trained in a gi regularly at some point with a few exceptions like Gordon Ryan and Josh Barnett. The best grapplers are going to win. The best grapplers are not the best because of the gi imo. It just so happens that grappling in the gi is very common so of course they have trained in the gi at some point. Nothing about the gi gave anyone an advantage over Gordon though or if it did then Gordon must really be the king because he became the best without the secret ingrediant to getting good at grappling. 

 

Imagine if nogi grappling was the popular way to grapple and all the competitions were nogi and then someone came along trying to sell everyone a gi and they marketed on the idea that training while wearing the right clothing would increase your nogi grappling making it become much better. LMAO  I mean that is the ideology that gi proponents have bought into. 

I totally agree

2/11/19 7:10 PM
7/27/13
Posts: 2752

We're seeing a shift where people who train exlusively in no-gi are doing better at no-gi than those who do both. Makes sense.

2/11/19 7:26 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 33339

Just wait until people who train jujitsu in a traditional, Japanese Hakama start competing.

It's gonna be game over.

2/11/19 9:01 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 430
Just some food for thought, it is widely speculated that Brasilian soccer players are better than the rest of the world because they play futsal, a variation of the game where it is played on the street rather than on the field. In studies done on comparisons of the games, futsal players touched the ball six times more per minute than traditional soccer. The ball is smaller and heavier. So you cannot just kick the ball down the field when you're in trouble. It requires accurate passing and ball handling, as if they are playing in a confined space, making tight aggressive ball handling easier when translated to soccer.

I think POSSIBLY the gi has the same effects in certain areas, particularly in defence. I think it may tighten up your defence due to having more offence and grips to select from. I think the opposite may be true for offence due to slipperiness and less fabric in the way. Maybe they complement each other so you should just do both?

I also think as the modern gi game (reliance on lapels) continues its evolution in a direction that is completely non applicable to nogi, the more it won't start to matter as much.


Edited: 2/11/19 9:47 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17046
^ Yes, far smarter and skilled teachers than me like Marcelo Garcia and John Danaher have both said that the Gi helps the No Gi game and the No Gi game will help your Gi game.
2/11/19 9:49 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17047
Calhoon - 
Muffinho -

One thing people forget is that the current best nogi-only competitor, Gordan Ryan, can't beat a guy who trains nogi only a few weeks out of the year. 

https://youtu.be/vGsVmUVdroU

 

Barnett never trained in a gi period. You cant go by one example and set a rule.

 

My take on gi vs nogi in sport is this. The best grappling competitors have all trained in a gi regularly at some point with a few exceptions like Gordon Ryan and Josh Barnett. The best grapplers are going to win. The best grapplers are not the best because of the gi imo. It just so happens that grappling in the gi is very common so of course they have trained in the gi at some point. Nothing about the gi gave anyone an advantage over Gordon though or if it did then Gordon must really be the king because he became the best without the secret ingrediant to getting good at grappling. 

 

Imagine if nogi grappling was the popular way to grapple and all the competitions were nogi and then someone came along trying to sell everyone a gi and they marketed on the idea that training while wearing the right clothing would increase your nogi grappling making it become much better. LMAO  I mean that is the ideology that gi proponents have bought into. 


And this is my point for this thread- I do believe that wearing the gi will make your no gi game better.
2/12/19 1:55 AM
11/23/08
Posts: 910

I reckon the no-gi and gi game are now very very different. The gi game is berimbolos whereas the no-gi game is submission orientated and leg-locks are really important.

I don't think many competitors will be successful in both the gi and no-gi.

2/12/19 6:36 AM
11/2/12
Posts: 187

I seen a video recently of Gordon and Craig Jones training in the gi at Renzos . Also Gordon and Jones competed in the Gi until purple / maybe Brown . I know they train primarily no-gi but are they just no-gi grapplers . I personally don’t think so . Geo Martinez , I’ve never heard about him in a gi . He does fairly well , beat some high level names but falls short of the top gi guys who do the big NoGi tournaments