David Jacobs' BJJGround Does training No Gi make you the best No Gi?

2/15/19 8:55 AM
9/7/17
Posts: 428
The Closed Guard - 

^idk why this is still an argument. Gi grapplers are overall better grapplers than no gi. End of story. 


I think people that do both are. They grapple more on average and they get a wider variety of looks, and get to learn a broader spectrum of techniques and strategies.

Unless someone just really hates one or loves one way more than the other I don't know why anyone would choose to only do one.

¯\_(?)_/¯
2/15/19 2:57 PM
11/25/09
Posts: 4382
iqwrestler -


Holy LOL I couldn’t have imagined a better NAGA pick of you! 

 

If this doesnt scream Intermediate division Champ idk what does! Oh man, that was great thank you for that. Lol 

 

Stop by anytime you’re in Vegas, we will have plenty of guys for you to totally crush brooooo. Lol goof 

2/15/19 6:21 PM
5/11/11
Posts: 2190
BTTMike -
iqwrestler -


Holy LOL I couldn’t have imagined a better NAGA pick of you! 

 

If this doesnt scream Intermediate division Champ idk what does! Oh man, that was great thank you for that. Lol 

 

Stop by anytime you’re in Vegas, we will have plenty of guys for you to totally crush brooooo. Lol goof 

So you’ve got nothing like I assumed then. 

Edited: 2/15/19 6:25 PM
11/23/08
Posts: 912
The Closed Guard -

^idk why this is still an argument. Gi grapplers are overall better grapplers than no gi. End of story. 

Is this really true ? It depends on how you judge it. I think it's pretty clear that you can excel in no-gi grappling without training in the gi.

 

If overall grappling includes gi and no gi then I suppose people who do both tend to do better in both but that is basically a meaningless comment.

 

I still think the two sports are becoming more and more different. Sure you aren't going to make it to the top in either sport and not be pretty darn good at the other sport but different techniques work better in the gi and in no gi.

 

I'm a crappy old brown belt but in my training I am starting to think I have to work on different parts of the game in no-gi compared to gi to be able to do okay against the kids training today. Some of the young kids are really good at berimbolos and I figure I should learn that. I also think my no-gi game has improved a fair bit since learning some Danaher stuff which doesn't translate to the gi that well.

2/15/19 7:08 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 6663
SpeedKing9 - Just some food for thought, it is widely speculated that Brasilian soccer players are better than the rest of the world because they play futsal, a variation of the game where it is played on the street rather than on the field. In studies done on comparisons of the games, futsal players touched the ball six times more per minute than traditional soccer. The ball is smaller and heavier. So you cannot just kick the ball down the field when you're in trouble. It requires accurate passing and ball handling, as if they are playing in a confined space, making tight aggressive ball handling easier when translated to soccer.

I think POSSIBLY the gi has the same effects in certain areas, particularly in defence. I think it may tighten up your defence due to having more offence and grips to select from. I think the opposite may be true for offence due to slipperiness and less fabric in the way. Maybe they complement each other so you should just do both?

I also think as the modern gi game (reliance on lapels) continues its evolution in a direction that is completely non applicable to nogi, the more it won't start to matter as much.


I think this method can be used in jiu-Jitsu but not in the way you are thinking. I don’t see how escaping is much different except for situations where someone uses a gi to pin you but those situations call for grip breaking or other escapes all together. That doesn’t do anything to improve someone’s nogi game imo.

 

However this method you spoke of can be utilized with situational sparring. Work the areas you are weak in specifically until you have them down. That’s pretty much the same way that the Brazilians benefitted in the soccer example imo.

Edited: 2/15/19 9:02 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 33367

OK...

Some good points, especially in regards to proprioception, etc. 

I'm half-way through researching a book on a similar topic and one area I feel I'd be remiss if I were not to address --and don't worry, I am not going to do an exhaustive breakdown of scientific data here-- but it's one topic that  --for whatever reason-- often get neglected in these discussions.

Specifically, I want to make sure that when we look at the overall matrix used to decide to what extent "gl" vs "no gi" training each contribute to success in competition, we MUST recognize the singular fact that no-gi guys are --almost exclusively--  super creepy homos. 

It's just one data point, but we need to keep reality as part of the equation.

Anyway, good discussion guys!

 

 

2/16/19 12:29 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13309

oh yeah....I CAN JAQ TO THIS!

 

2/16/19 8:26 AM
2/19/18
Posts: 56
Calhoon -
SpeedKing9 - Just some food for thought, it is widely speculated that Brasilian soccer players are better than the rest of the world because they play futsal, a variation of the game where it is played on the street rather than on the field. In studies done on comparisons of the games, futsal players touched the ball six times more per minute than traditional soccer. The ball is smaller and heavier. So you cannot just kick the ball down the field when you're in trouble. It requires accurate passing and ball handling, as if they are playing in a confined space, making tight aggressive ball handling easier when translated to soccer.

I think POSSIBLY the gi has the same effects in certain areas, particularly in defence. I think it may tighten up your defence due to having more offence and grips to select from. I think the opposite may be true for offence due to slipperiness and less fabric in the way. Maybe they complement each other so you should just do both?

I also think as the modern gi game (reliance on lapels) continues its evolution in a direction that is completely non applicable to nogi, the more it won't start to matter as much.


I think this method can be used in jiu-Jitsu but not in the way you are thinking. I don’t see how escaping is much different except for situations where someone uses a gi to pin you but those situations call for grip breaking or other escapes all together. That doesn’t do anything to improve someone’s nogi game imo.

 

However this method you spoke of can be utilized with situational sparring. Work the areas you are weak in specifically until you have them down. That’s pretty much the same way that the Brazilians benefitted in the soccer example imo.

This was from a book I read, don't think it was outliers but similar.

 

They said having a smaller, heavier ball and a smaller field gave players more exposure to the ball and improved their ball handling from what I remember.

 

The Gi certainly makes things much less "loose".  It could be that guy's stay in the attack/defend positions more because of the Gi.

Edited: 2/16/19 9:46 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 6664
bjjlurker -
Calhoon -
SpeedKing9 -  Just some food for thought, it is widely speculated that Brasilian soccer players are better than the rest of the world because they play futsal, a variation of the game where it is played on the street rather than on the field. In studies done on comparisons of the games, futsal players touched the ball six times more per minute than traditional soccer. The ball is smaller and heavier. So you cannot just kick the ball down the field when you're in trouble. It requires accurate passing and ball handling, as if they are playing in a confined space, making tight aggressive ball handling easier when translated to soccer.

I think POSSIBLY the gi has the same effects in certain areas, particularly in defence. I think it may tighten up your defence due to having more offence and grips to select from. I think the opposite may be true for offence due to slipperiness and less fabric in the way. Maybe they complement each other so you should just do both?

I also think as the modern gi game (reliance on lapels) continues its evolution in a direction that is completely non applicable to nogi, the more it won't start to matter as much.

 

I think this method can be used in jiu-Jitsu but not in the way you are thinking. I don’t see how escaping is much different except for situations where someone uses a gi to pin you but those situations call for grip breaking or other escapes all together. That doesn’t do anything to improve someone’s nogi game imo.

 

However this method you spoke of can be utilized with situational sparring. Work the areas you are weak in specifically until you have them down. That’s pretty much the same way that the Brazilians benefitted in the soccer example imo.

This was from a book I read, don't think it was outliers but similar.

 

They said having a smaller, heavier ball and a smaller field gave players more exposure to the ball and improved their ball handling from what I remember.

 

The Gi certainly makes things much less "loose".  It could be that guy's stay in the attack/defend positions more because of the Gi.

I know, Daniel Coyle “The Little Book Of Talent” and “The Talent Code” I have read both of them and my take is that the Brazilian soccer players got better, not because the ball was smaller directly but indirectly because, and this is the important part, THEY COULDNT KICK THE BALL DOWNFIELD WHEN THEY WERE IN TROUBLE AND THEY WERE FORCED TO LEARN HOW TO HANDLE THE BALL.

 

I believe this principle can be used when training jiu-Jitsu also by doing situational sparring in areas where you need work. In situational sparring you can’t “just kick the ball downfield” or play your game to avoid the situation you are having trouble with so you get to “learn how to handle the ball better” because you “get more touches on the ball”. In the example of side control escapes you can just start in side control and have a partner just hold you there while you try to escape. Let him start easier and give you feedback on mistakes you are making and then he can tighten things up as you progress. This way you learn how to escape the position as well as you can and don’t have to resort to tricks like baiting him to take a submission or go to mount and try to escape during transition etc. And in this way you get to work the position many more times than you would in normal rolling and that is what Daniel Coyle was pointing out helped the soccer players I believe. They were forced to handle the ball more.

 

 

I also do not believe side control is any tougher to escape with the gi on when you have two guys who have good side control and good escapes or that more time is spent in attack defend positions because of the gi making things”less loose.” I believe things can get just as tight in nogi also.

2/16/19 2:16 PM
2/19/18
Posts: 57
Calhoon -
bjjlurker -
Calhoon -
SpeedKing9 -  Just some food for thought, it is widely speculated that Brasilian soccer players are better than the rest of the world because they play futsal, a variation of the game where it is played on the street rather than on the field. In studies done on comparisons of the games, futsal players touched the ball six times more per minute than traditional soccer. The ball is smaller and heavier. So you cannot just kick the ball down the field when you're in trouble. It requires accurate passing and ball handling, as if they are playing in a confined space, making tight aggressive ball handling easier when translated to soccer.

I think POSSIBLY the gi has the same effects in certain areas, particularly in defence. I think it may tighten up your defence due to having more offence and grips to select from. I think the opposite may be true for offence due to slipperiness and less fabric in the way. Maybe they complement each other so you should just do both?

I also think as the modern gi game (reliance on lapels) continues its evolution in a direction that is completely non applicable to nogi, the more it won't start to matter as much.

 

I think this method can be used in jiu-Jitsu but not in the way you are thinking. I don’t see how escaping is much different except for situations where someone uses a gi to pin you but those situations call for grip breaking or other escapes all together. That doesn’t do anything to improve someone’s nogi game imo.

 

However this method you spoke of can be utilized with situational sparring. Work the areas you are weak in specifically until you have them down. That’s pretty much the same way that the Brazilians benefitted in the soccer example imo.

This was from a book I read, don't think it was outliers but similar.

 

They said having a smaller, heavier ball and a smaller field gave players more exposure to the ball and improved their ball handling from what I remember.

 

The Gi certainly makes things much less "loose".  It could be that guy's stay in the attack/defend positions more because of the Gi.

I know, Daniel Coyle “The Little Book Of Talent” and “The Talent Code” I have read both of them and my take is that the Brazilian soccer players got better, not because the ball was smaller directly but indirectly because, and this is the important part, THEY COULDNT KICK THE BALL DOWNFIELD WHEN THEY WERE IN TROUBLE AND THEY WERE FORCED TO LEARN HOW TO HANDLE THE BALL.

 

I believe this principle can be used when training jiu-Jitsu also by doing situational sparring in areas where you need work. In situational sparring you can’t “just kick the ball downfield” or play your game to avoid the situation you are having trouble with so you get to “learn how to handle the ball better” because you “get more touches on the ball”. In the example of side control escapes you can just start in side control and have a partner just hold you there while you try to escape. Let him start easier and give you feedback on mistakes you are making and then he can tighten things up as you progress. This way you learn how to escape the position as well as you can and don’t have to resort to tricks like baiting him to take a submission or go to mount and try to escape during transition etc. And in this way you get to work the position many more times than you would in normal rolling and that is what Daniel Coyle was pointing out helped the soccer players I believe. They were forced to handle the ball more.

 

 

I also do not believe side control is any tougher to escape with the gi on when you have two guys who have good side control and good escapes or that more time is spent in attack defend positions because of the gi making things”less loose.” I believe things can get just as tight in nogi also.

Yes, talent code is what I read.

I'm reading a book on deliberate practice now.

I'd be very surprised if Danaher hasn't read it or a similar one.  His language and the way he describes things sound like they could have been taken straight from the book or Erickson said them.

People have been doing specific training for a long time.  If you subscribe to Roger's site it's a core of what they do. 

 

I was just throwing out theories for why Gi seems to impact No-Gi.  

I do think there's ways to overcome it but it probably involves a high level wrestler training with a coach with a heavy Gi background at this point.

2/17/19 2:46 PM
9/7/17
Posts: 431
If nothing else the gi is a tremendous tool for letting you see things slower. Allowing the brain the process more of what's going on due to the slower pace. There are these little moments during gi rolls where you'll just get to be in positions for longer periods of time due to friction than you would otherwise.

I think that alone is a great reason for no-gi practitioners to have at least some foundational gi experience. I'm big on the idea that no-gi does not have to be this fast paced game based on more athleticism. At the same time I have to admit that the average slow paced no-gi roll is an above-average paced gi roll.

So being able to use an artificial tool to slow things down really helps with muscle memory on a practical level, as well as the ability to understand positions and techniques on a conceptual level.
Edited: 2/17/19 8:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 33383

Traditionally,  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is done both in a gi AND not in a gi.

I don't even think there's such as thing as a "gi only" school --Is anyone here from a BJJ school that doesn't offer ANY no gi? I always train no gi when I travel and I've never run into a BJJ school that didn't have offer a no gi class.

Truthfully, the whole "gi" vs "no gi" rivalry only goes one way.

Most "traditional" BJJ players usually train at least some no gi. Most like it or at least see the value of it. I don't really hear many traditional BJJ people say they "hate" no gi. I've heard it, but very rarely.

But people from no gi schools, on the other hand, act more like vegans; They don't just not eat meat, they HATE meat. They commonly say things like they "hate" the gi and refuse to ever wear one. They are actually against the gi. That's more the norm there.

As mentioned above, the great thing about the traditional approach to BJJ is you can train with ANYONE who grapples; gi, no-gi, whatever. Problem with no gi purists is they will only train with other no gi people --and that's probably one of the major contributing factors as to why so-called "gi players" do so well in no gi competition.

It's kind of ironic that the "traditional" approach to BJJ actually seems to be the more open-minded one.

2/18/19 6:15 PM
9/7/17
Posts: 432
shen - 

Traditionally,  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is done both in a gi AND not in a gi.

I don't even think there's such as thing as a "gi only" school --Is anyone here from a BJJ school that doesn't offer ANY no gi? I always train no gi when I travel and I've never run into a BJJ school that didn't have offer a no gi class.

Truthfully, the whole "gi" vs "no gi" rivalry only goes one way.

Most "traditional" BJJ players usually train at least some no gi. Most like it or at least see the value of it. I don't really hear many traditional BJJ people say they "hate" no gi. I've heard it, but very rarely.

But people from no gi schools, on the other hand, act more like vegans; They don't just not eat meat, they HATE meat. They commonly say things like they "hate" the gi and refuse to ever wear one. They are actually against the gi. That's more the norm there.

As mentioned above, the great thing about the traditional approach to BJJ is you can train with ANYONE who grapples; gi, no-gi, whatever. Problem with no gi purists is they will only train with other no gi people --and that's probably one of the major contributing factors as to why so-called "gi players" do so well in no gi competition.

It's kind of ironic that the "traditional" approach to BJJ actually seems to be the more open-minded one.


Fantastic points all around.

You can see this play out at almost every weekend open mat in any city. Most people from a more traditional approach bring gi and no-gi gear or will at least be willing to take the gi top off and roll no-gi of someone wants to. We all know a couple people that only bring no-gi gear to open mats and will just sit out any and all gi rolls.
2/25/19 12:56 PM
2/21/19
Posts: 0
mata_leaos -
The Closed Guard - 

^idk why this is still an argument. Gi grapplers are overall better grapplers than no gi. End of story. 


I think people that do both are. They grapple more on average and they get a wider variety of looks, and get to learn a broader spectrum of techniques and strategies.

Unless someone just really hates one or loves one way more than the other I don't know why anyone would choose to only do one.

¯\_(?)_/¯

 one thing a lot of no-gi guys seem to misunderstand about the gi is that it can be a lot more fun and creative to actually do it, as the gripping creates a more complex meta game with millions of hidden leverage points. I agree that no-gi is usually more fun to watch (though a big part of the problem is IBJJF rules incentivizing gi matches to become sweeps battles), but the appeal of training in the gi is just a hard thing to explain to somebody who hasn't seriously done it.