David Jacobs' BJJGround I am genuinely curious how the gi has helped you?

Edited: 6/16/19 8:38 PM
3/20/14
Posts: 852

I explain to new people that the misery of the criss-crossed under garments, twisted pants, top, belt and elevated body-heat index while being smashed, crumpled and suffocated underneath a skilled, crushing opponent is an acquired taste, but part of the deal. The exploitation and nuances afforded of nearly every square inch of the cloth as a defensive or offensive mechanism adds a unique, artistic dimension of creativity and improvisation.

6/16/19 10:13 PM
1/13/06
Posts: 7373

i once ezequiel'd a mugger on the streets of copacabana

6/16/19 10:53 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13058
The Gi make tight

- anonymous
6/17/19 8:25 AM
7/5/12
Posts: 2116
Ernest Estrada - 

I have choked people out in real life encounters using their own collar from everything to jackets to a polo shirt. Would not have been able to do that if I didn't train with a gi. 


Sure you could have. Choking someone with an inanimate object is not a difficult skill to learn. Nowhere near the skill level It takes to learn to properly apply an RNC, guillotine or head and arm choke.
6/17/19 11:42 AM
9/7/17
Posts: 603
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.
6/17/19 2:50 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 16006
nogidavid - 

i once ezequiel'd a mugger on the streets of copacabana


Did you have a feather in your hair and a dress cut down to there?
6/17/19 2:53 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 16007
mata_leaos - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

I consider it BJJ whether it's in the gi or not. Back in the day, the difference between the two wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now. Back then, all the gi guys either fought vale tudo or trained on teams who fought vale tudo. There was very little BJJ for BJJ's sake--it was almost always trained in the context of actual fighting.

Now, it seems as though no gi is actual BJJ for fighting, and gi is BJJ for BJJ tournaments.
6/17/19 3:46 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 7056
Soul Gravy -
mata_leaos - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

I consider it BJJ whether it's in the gi or not. Back in the day, the difference between the two wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now. Back then, all the gi guys either fought vale tudo or trained on teams who fought vale tudo. There was very little BJJ for BJJ's sake--it was almost always trained in the context of actual fighting.

Now, it seems as though no gi is actual BJJ for fighting, and gi is BJJ for BJJ tournaments.

Not really, nogi is still sport nogi. Sitting guard is a popular choice and the way it’s played it is just as unrealistic as a lot of the gi guards.

6/20/19 3:23 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13577
mata_leaos -
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

"...but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?"

 

nogi is part of jiujitsu traijing, as is VT....IME/IMO. To me jiuitsu is NOT just gi or no-gi ground grappling. It is a grappling fighting style.....which would imply a broader application and skill.

6/20/19 3:24 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13578
Calhoon -
Soul Gravy -
mata_leaos - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

I consider it BJJ whether it's in the gi or not. Back in the day, the difference between the two wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now. Back then, all the gi guys either fought vale tudo or trained on teams who fought vale tudo. There was very little BJJ for BJJ's sake--it was almost always trained in the context of actual fighting.

Now, it seems as though no gi is actual BJJ for fighting, and gi is BJJ for BJJ tournaments.

Not really, nogi is still sport nogi. Sitting guard is a popular choice and the way it’s played it is just as unrealistic as a lot of the gi guards.

ind3ed

6/21/19 7:51 PM
6/24/05
Posts: 6357
My first six years of training were Nogi. The gi has given me more mat time and more training partners.
6/23/19 1:17 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 34246
Foos - My first six years of training were Nogi. The gi has given me more mat time and more training partners.

And, in all seriousness, that's the really good thing about training both; you don't miss out on training simply because someone is wearing a different outfit.

 

 

 

6/23/19 7:55 PM
9/7/17
Posts: 619
shen - 
Foos - My first six years of training were Nogi. The gi has given me more mat time and more training partners.

And, in all seriousness, that's the really good thing about training both; you don't miss out on training simply because someone is wearing a different outfit.

 

 

 


Yeah you never want to be that person that gets frustrated when you have to change from pajamas to swim wear or vice versa because you know you can't adapt.
6/26/19 4:12 PM
7/15/04
Posts: 56207

.

6/26/19 4:20 PM
7/25/13
Posts: 10374
mata_leaos -
shen - 
Foos - My first six years of training were Nogi. The gi has given me more mat time and more training partners.

And, in all seriousness, that's the really good thing about training both; you don't miss out on training simply because someone is wearing a different outfit.

 

 

 


Yeah you never want to be that person that gets frustrated when you have to change from pajamas to swim wear or vice versa because you know you can't adapt.

Lol at this exchange.

6/27/19 6:16 PM
6/28/11
Posts: 1612

Seems to me that if we see pure no-gi guys beating gi/no-gi guys in no-gi competitions, that'd be a pretty good indicator that becoming just as "technical" and whatnot training exclusively no-gi is certainly possible.  

And indeed we are seeing some of that.  Danaher's crew obviously comes to mind.  Given that the training options still lean toward the gi (that is, most "big" BJJ schools are primarily gi), that's pretty impressive. The two pools aren't really even (i.e., great purely no-gi guys versus great gi/no-gi guys), so you'd expect most wins would be by gi/no-gi guys just as a matter of statistics.

So I dunno . . . I'm a recreational purple belt (3x to 4x per week).  And I just LIKE training them both.  Someone mentioned that earlier.  It's fun.  Lots of commonalities but lots of little differences that make it interesting.  

Beyond that, I don't look too hard at whether one improves the other or simply improves itself.  I'm not sure a truly "correct" answer is even possible.

Edited: 6/27/19 7:19 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 34311
mata_leaos - 
shen - 
Foos - My first six years of training were Nogi. The gi has given me more mat time and more training partners.

And, in all seriousness, that's the really good thing about training both; you don't miss out on training simply because someone is wearing a different outfit.

 

 

 


Yeah you never want to be that person that gets frustrated when you have to change from pajamas to swim wear or vice versa because you know you can't adapt.

 

Who knows? Maybe someday the arts will be united with the invention of "Swim Pajamas" 

 

6/27/19 11:29 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 9

What about discussing what the grips do as you teach? 

While you show the gi technique isn't it easy to show nearly the exact technique with no gi? 

To get students involved in the analysis and raise their fight IQ, after you demonstrate gi, ask them where to grip for no gi. Then show it no gi. Then back to gi. 

Gi class have them rep it 7x in gi and 3x no gi.

For rounds if you do 10x3min rounds, just make 2to3 no gi grabs. Simple. 

You could also ban specific guards till purple or similar. This will force them to focus on what you prioritized. 

6/29/19 9:47 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 9029
MTH -

Seems to me that if we see pure no-gi guys beating gi/no-gi guys in no-gi competitions, that'd be a pretty good indicator that becoming just as "technical" and whatnot training exclusively no-gi is certainly possible.  

And indeed we are seeing some of that.  Danaher's crew obviously comes to mind.  Given that the training options still lean toward the gi (that is, most "big" BJJ schools are primarily gi), that's pretty impressive. The two pools aren't really even (i.e., great purely no-gi guys versus great gi/no-gi guys), so you'd expect most wins would be by gi/no-gi guys just as a matter of statistics.

So I dunno . . . I'm a recreational purple belt (3x to 4x per week).  And I just LIKE training them both.  Someone mentioned that earlier.  It's fun.  Lots of commonalities but lots of little differences that make it interesting.  

Beyond that, I don't look too hard at whether one improves the other or simply improves itself.  I'm not sure a truly "correct" answer is even possible.

I mean really Gordon is the only one doing that, and Pena has beaten him 2x. 

 

So you have one guy who trains 100% no gi losing to a guy who trains 30% no gi....

6/29/19 11:54 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 275

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.

6/30/19 3:05 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 7107
The Closed Guard -
MTH -

Seems to me that if we see pure no-gi guys beating gi/no-gi guys in no-gi competitions, that'd be a pretty good indicator that becoming just as "technical" and whatnot training exclusively no-gi is certainly possible.  

And indeed we are seeing some of that.  Danaher's crew obviously comes to mind.  Given that the training options still lean toward the gi (that is, most "big" BJJ schools are primarily gi), that's pretty impressive. The two pools aren't really even (i.e., great purely no-gi guys versus great gi/no-gi guys), so you'd expect most wins would be by gi/no-gi guys just as a matter of statistics.

So I dunno . . . I'm a recreational purple belt (3x to 4x per week).  And I just LIKE training them both.  Someone mentioned that earlier.  It's fun.  Lots of commonalities but lots of little differences that make it interesting.  

Beyond that, I don't look too hard at whether one improves the other or simply improves itself.  I'm not sure a truly "correct" answer is even possible.

I mean really Gordon is the only one doing that, and Pena has beaten him 2x. 

 

So you have one guy who trains 100% no gi losing to a guy who trains 30% no gi....

But would Pena be just as good or even better if he only focused on nogi? 

6/30/19 2:55 PM
5/27/09
Posts: 348
The Closed Guard - 
MTH -

Seems to me that if we see pure no-gi guys beating gi/no-gi guys in no-gi competitions, that'd be a pretty good indicator that becoming just as "technical" and whatnot training exclusively no-gi is certainly possible.  

And indeed we are seeing some of that.  Danaher's crew obviously comes to mind.  Given that the training options still lean toward the gi (that is, most "big" BJJ schools are primarily gi), that's pretty impressive. The two pools aren't really even (i.e., great purely no-gi guys versus great gi/no-gi guys), so you'd expect most wins would be by gi/no-gi guys just as a matter of statistics.

So I dunno . . . I'm a recreational purple belt (3x to 4x per week).  And I just LIKE training them both.  Someone mentioned that earlier.  It's fun.  Lots of commonalities but lots of little differences that make it interesting.  

Beyond that, I don't look too hard at whether one improves the other or simply improves itself.  I'm not sure a truly "correct" answer is even possible.

I mean really Gordon is the only one doing that, and Pena has beaten him 2x. 

 

So you have one guy who trains 100% no gi losing to a guy who trains 30% no gi....


There's no way to know though whether or not Pena's no-gi skill and performance would be better, worse, or the same as it is now if he was only training in no-gi.

Correlation doesn't equal causation. It might be a contributing factor but it might not.

I do think there is a decent argument that if Pena was 100% focused on no-gi that he would not have been subbed by Tex Johnson the other month.

Calhoon's point does remain that across the board no-gi specialists are having more success than ever in no-gi right now. Gi specialists are having the most success in gi. I think it's very likely that people like Craig Jones and (I think) Keenan Cornelius are correctly predicting that the evolution in both gi and no-gi is moving at a rate where seeing so many people that are equally skilled in both is going to become more of a rarity.
26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 271
It helps when you get older and need to hang onto younger, stronger and faster people.

I prefer no gi, but enjoy some time in the pajamas as well, especially if i'm injured.
26 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16540
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.
26 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16541
Calhoon - 
Soul Gravy -
mata_leaos - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

I consider it BJJ whether it's in the gi or not. Back in the day, the difference between the two wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now. Back then, all the gi guys either fought vale tudo or trained on teams who fought vale tudo. There was very little BJJ for BJJ's sake--it was almost always trained in the context of actual fighting.

Now, it seems as though no gi is actual BJJ for fighting, and gi is BJJ for BJJ tournaments.

Not really, nogi is still sport nogi. Sitting guard is a popular choice and the way it’s played it is just as unrealistic as a lot of the gi guards.


Sport no gi is still far closer to real fighting than training in the gi. The gi gives you a false sense of control--it relies on artificial hand holds that A) aren't always available and B) don't always really control the person. I'd much rather control the head than grip a lapel. Or an actual wrist or tricep vs. a sleeve grip. One actually controls the person. The other is just pulling on clothing.