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David Jacobs' BJJGround I am genuinely curious how the gi has helped you?

7/28/19 7:51 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 64543

The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

7/28/19 8:09 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 16546
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.
7/28/19 9:56 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13647
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

in 5he case of #1. Oh the things ive done to people wearing BDUs or similar....LOL! Think about jackets and the like. Even a hoodie or tshirt can be used agaisnt a person. I was in seattle for christmas....everybody in jackets and coats.

 

As for number 2. EXACTLY.......the fuggin problem. Blame the instructor.....and the student too.

 

Its a training problem,  ot purely a technique or skill one.

7/29/19 12:02 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 64547

Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

7/29/19 12:13 AM
8/20/16
Posts: 312
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.

thanks for shutting the fuck up about wrestling when no one is talking about wrestling. It's appreciated.

7/29/19 12:18 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 26
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

Re #1

Ultimately the use of the gi has taught and reinforced what a grip is for. 

That is gi or no gi. The use of the gi as a handle has taught me more about using a handle gi or no gi than no gi.

Understanding the gi for myself allowed me to understand the concepts of moving a person, moving myself around my opponent(s) or moving us around each other. This translates to no gi as well. The leverage points and points of contact just need to be adjusted. 

7/29/19 12:21 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 27

As for attacking a person in street clothing using a gi grip... it's very possible. The idea of clothing ripping or not being durable enough is not valid as getting more cloth near critical structural points is the answer to using street clothes as a gi. 

Edited: 8/6/19 12:53 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 34695

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" attire makes the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with skirts & lapels (clothes most people don't wear).

Yes a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 

7/29/19 3:07 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 16551
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.

thanks for shutting the fuck up about wrestling when no one is talking about wrestling. It's appreciated.


Enjoy your blue belt, champ. You've earned.
7/29/19 3:09 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 16552
shen - 

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" make the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with clothes most people don't wear. 

Yeas a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 


I would also wonder why you're trying to collar choke someone in a street fight instead of either dropping elbows from on top or sweeping and standing back up if you're on bottom.
7/29/19 11:58 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 64549
Kahunadog - 
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

Re #1

Ultimately the use of the gi has taught and reinforced what a grip is for. 

That is gi or no gi. The use of the gi as a handle has taught me more about using a handle gi or no gi than no gi.

Understanding the gi for myself allowed me to understand the concepts of moving a person, moving myself around my opponent(s) or moving us around each other. This translates to no gi as well. The leverage points and points of contact just need to be adjusted. 


If it worked for you, then great, but those concepts can be understood without the involvement of a gi.
Edited: 7/30/19 5:55 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 7256
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don't hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don't believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I'm just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.

7/30/19 7:35 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 32
Soul Gravy -
shen - 

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" make the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with clothes most people don't wear. 

Yeas a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 


I would also wonder why you're trying to collar choke someone in a street fight instead of either dropping elbows from on top or sweeping and standing back up if you're on bottom.

Drunk bro in law

Druggie or Homeless with blood borne diseases

He has a great chin

Less physical evidence and trauma

 

 

 

7/30/19 7:37 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 33
Calhoon -
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don't hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don't believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I'm just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.

I actually feel the same, but that's why I prefer the gi. There's greater understanding of grips. Whether they are naked or dressed.

7/30/19 7:49 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 34

Rote memorization is the lowest form of learning. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

It fails to integrate higher learning and conceptual understanding for on the fly adjustments. 

But But buffbagwell does not do rote memorization, I'll bet he's smart enough to improvise on the fly and make adjustments due to various factors, orientation , pressure, threat, etc. 

 

Teaching a class no gi so people can fight in clothing and naked is partly analogous to rote memorization.

If one's teaching a class, why not everyone be in a gi(most times)?

Then when teaching a technique show the different grips.

If you want them to do 10reps have 7 with the gi and 3 with no gi grips. If its 5reps the 3gi and 2 nogi. Verbalize and have them feel the differences in control.

 

 

 

 

7/30/19 9:59 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 64551
Calhoon - 
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don't hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don't believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I'm just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.


100% agree with this. I only throw a gi on a handful of times a year, but I never feel THAT out of my depth. I play my no-gi game and add grips. Against some smaller guys I actually feel MORE dominant because the gi allows you to attach yourself to your opponent more easily. The only folks who can really mess me up are ones who specialize in entanglements like spider guard, leg lasso, etc. For those folks I need to play very conservatively.
8/5/19 3:34 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 20513

Defence is much more important than offence in jiu jitsu. The gi is like wearing a weight vest for defence. You have to be much more efficient and precise with your defence and escapes in almost every situation while wearing the gi. You have to have better distance control and posture. Additionally, it slows things down which allows for most students to get more improvement out of rolling. When it comes time to roll, most people roll competitively, which means you won't be getting most of your improvement from rolling because things move too quickly. The gi mitigates that. So, in short, the gi has made my defence much more efficient and precise.

8/5/19 3:37 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 20514

Also, no gi encourages your control to be more precise, however these skills are not as important as your defensive skills.

8/5/19 3:59 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 46
demandango -

Defence is much more important than offence in jiu jitsu. The gi is like wearing a weight vest for defence. You have to be much more efficient and precise with your defence and escapes in almost every situation while wearing the gi. You have to have better distance control and posture. Additionally, it slows things down which allows for most students to get more improvement out of rolling. When it comes time to roll, most people roll competitively, which means you won't be getting most of your improvement from rolling because things move too quickly. The gi mitigates that. So, in short, the gi has made my defence much more efficient and precise.

Exactly.

You put it very well.

 

 

 

8/5/19 4:03 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13069

Generally when people ask these questions they really dont care, they just want to argue lol

Anyway, I was a #nogi4life guy for many many years, then I finally thought I would give the gi a chance after doing very little over the years, I already had multiple years in No Gi training, but I wanted to expand and went full gi training

At first I hated it and thought people were cheating by holding onto my pants and passing me easily lol

But after some time, it all started to come together, so my answer to the question of how gi training made me better would be

Defending my guard and passing guard became so much better overall because you can no stimulate the amount of time you spend doing both (passing and defending) no gi as you can in gi, No gi is more frantic, slippery, more scrambled, it's fun and builds other attributes that the gi cant simulate, but I already had those from years of No gi

When I take the gi off my guard retention and passing is crisper and tighter then when I never trained Gi

When you are in roll after roll of guys grabbing your pants, gi etc...to pass and that battle is just relentless you learn to move you feet, legs, hips, etc to fight off a really good passing who has all the grips on you, it's a great training tool

And that's what the gi is for me, a training tool

But train what you want, people worry way to much what others are doing

The majority of my grappling has been No gi, but I am now a black belt in BJJ in the gi

8/5/19 7:26 PM
3/20/14
Posts: 889

Learn to be hot, miserable, near suffocation levels and still think and function.

8/13/19 8:48 PM
10/8/08
Posts: 2025

tell you what didnt help me when i tried to seio-nage a guy with just a t-shirt, i threw his tshirt instead and had to switch thai clinch foot sweep.

8/14/19 2:00 AM
2/8/11
Posts: 699
liquidrob - Generally when people ask these questions they really dont care, they just want to argue lol

Anyway, I was a #nogi4life guy for many many years, then I finally thought I would give the gi a chance after doing very little over the years, I already had multiple years in No Gi training, but I wanted to expand and went full gi training

At first I hated it and thought people were cheating by holding onto my pants and passing me easily lol

But after some time, it all started to come together, so my answer to the question of how gi training made me better would be

Defending my guard and passing guard became so much better overall because you can no stimulate the amount of time you spend doing both (passing and defending) no gi as you can in gi, No gi is more frantic, slippery, more scrambled, it's fun and builds other attributes that the gi cant simulate, but I already had those from years of No gi

When I take the gi off my guard retention and passing is crisper and tighter then when I never trained Gi

When you are in roll after roll of guys grabbing your pants, gi etc...to pass and that battle is just relentless you learn to move you feet, legs, hips, etc to fight off a really good passing who has all the grips on you, it's a great training tool

And that's what the gi is for me, a training tool

But train what you want, people worry way to much what others are doing

The majority of my grappling has been No gi, but I am now a black belt in BJJ in the gi

I go back and forth with gi and no-gi myself. I really like the technical layer that the gi has added to my game, that has translated to my no-gi game. Same deal, having to deal with the grips and the friction has just made me better overall. Playing, no-gi my defenses are that much better. 

Conversely, no-gi has made my gi game better by not being overly reliant on grips and being better with my pins and weight distribution. But that wasn't the OP's question. 

That all being said, I really hate the overly esoteric gi games out there like lapel/worm guard and overly specialized chokes and the like that are just way too specific to wearing a big cottony bathrobe.

8/14/19 2:23 AM
2/27/08
Posts: 1613

My first 6 years were no gi and in that time I never developed an armbar game - just triangles and taking the back. I got maybe 10 in total.

 

 

With the gi on armbars came so much easier. Now it's all I look for in either style.

 

Thanks gi.

8/18/19 10:41 PM
5/7/08
Posts: 439

When I wear mine to Panda Express after training nobody fucks with me.