David Jacobs' BJJGround I am genuinely curious how the gi has helped you?

25 days ago
8/20/16
Posts: 311
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.

25 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 25
Soul Gravy -
Calhoon - 
Soul Gravy -
mata_leaos - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 

another thing.....if  only no-gi, are you training jiujitsu? IMO, no. Call it somethijg else or brand it somehow, but it isnt jiujitsu.  Of course my opinion is if you not learning fighting, you also dont do jiujitsu, but wtf do i know.

 


I understand this on GP. I guess it's submission wrestling but at the same time if you came up learning at a Gracie school but doing the no-gi classes does that suddenly mean you aren't doing jiu-jitsu?

The whole gi and no-gi thing surprised me in the late 00's when I hopped online because I started in a Gracie lineage but only did no-gi for a couple years. No one said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. I learned without the gi how to shrimp, upa, hip escape, elbow escape, hip heist, flower sweep, and most every other technique that we would consider fundamentals. Eventually I put on a gi because I wanted to start getting promoted but no one said I wasn't doing BJJ and my instructors didn't even talk about gi or no-gi as if they were different things.

Not to mention I was the UFC and PRIDE and hearing the commentators talk about jiu-jitsu, and most of the Gracie in action footage I saw they weren't wearing gi tops or belts. Also besides Royce I was used to seeing Rickson, Renzo, and Royler fight with no gi on in PRIDE and ADCC.

The first 2 BJJ books I had was the Royler and Renzo book with the colored belt chapters and the Royler no-gi book. Even the former was was filled with pictures of them competing at the Abu Dhabi tournaments.

I consider it BJJ whether it's in the gi or not. Back in the day, the difference between the two wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is now. Back then, all the gi guys either fought vale tudo or trained on teams who fought vale tudo. There was very little BJJ for BJJ's sake--it was almost always trained in the context of actual fighting.

Now, it seems as though no gi is actual BJJ for fighting, and gi is BJJ for BJJ tournaments.

Not really, nogi is still sport nogi. Sitting guard is a popular choice and the way it’s played it is just as unrealistic as a lot of the gi guards.


Sport no gi is still far closer to real fighting than training in the gi. The gi gives you a false sense of control--it relies on artificial hand holds that A) aren't always available and B) don't always really control the person. I'd much rather control the head than grip a lapel. Or an actual wrist or tricep vs. a sleeve grip. One actually controls the person. The other is just pulling on clothing.

Unless you live at the beach or bath house most people have some type of clothing on. 

 

 

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 64543
The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.
25 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16546
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.
25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13647
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

in 5he case of #1. Oh the things ive done to people wearing BDUs or similar....LOL! Think about jackets and the like. Even a hoodie or tshirt can be used agaisnt a person. I was in seattle for christmas....everybody in jackets and coats.

 

As for number 2. EXACTLY.......the fuggin problem. Blame the instructor.....and the student too.

 

Its a training problem,  ot purely a technique or skill one.

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 64547
Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.
24 days ago
8/20/16
Posts: 312
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.

thanks for shutting the fuck up about wrestling when no one is talking about wrestling. It's appreciated.

24 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 26
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

Re #1

Ultimately the use of the gi has taught and reinforced what a grip is for. 

That is gi or no gi. The use of the gi as a handle has taught me more about using a handle gi or no gi than no gi.

Understanding the gi for myself allowed me to understand the concepts of moving a person, moving myself around my opponent(s) or moving us around each other. This translates to no gi as well. The leverage points and points of contact just need to be adjusted. 

24 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 27

As for attacking a person in street clothing using a gi grip... it's very possible. The idea of clothing ripping or not being durable enough is not valid as getting more cloth near critical structural points is the answer to using street clothes as a gi. 

Edited: 16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 34695

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" attire makes the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with skirts & lapels (clothes most people don't wear).

Yes a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 

24 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16551
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 
Soul Gravy -
blabbermouth - 

The control the gi gives me let me feel what the moves felt like when they actually work. The more I felt what success felt like, the more I understood why the move was successful, the quicker I got, the easier no gi became because I knew what adjustments to make.

 

I honestly don't think I would be as technical of grappler if I was only a no gi grappler.


Wrestling is every bit as technical as BJJ and doesn't use a gi.

1. i wasn't saying anything about wrestling, so thanks for rushing to defend your precious sport when it was entirely unnecessary. I hope you got there in time to save your feelings.

 

2. I'm much better at BJJ than I ever was at wrestling and I'm sure it's because of what I described in my previous post. Now, i know longer train pure wrestling, but when I do a stand-up no-gi class I have enough knowledge of control to understand when the move will work or what i need to change to get the control for the move. i also have a great ability to know when I'm safe or in danger because i know what it feels like when I've disrupted my opponent's control. If you don't like that my experience with the gi is overwhelmingly more positive and productive than without it then you can kiss my balls because not everything in life works the way you want it to.


You have serious issues.

thanks for shutting the fuck up about wrestling when no one is talking about wrestling. It's appreciated.


Enjoy your blue belt, champ. You've earned.
24 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16552
shen - 

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" make the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with clothes most people don't wear. 

Yeas a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 


I would also wonder why you're trying to collar choke someone in a street fight instead of either dropping elbows from on top or sweeping and standing back up if you're on bottom.
23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 64549
Kahunadog - 
Tomato Can - The whole "gi is more realistic because of clothing" thing is silly because:

1) Most people don't wear clothing that is reminiscent of 19th century Japan.

2) Most people who train gi (or train BJJ in general) don't train in any way that is remotely focused on realistic combat or self-defense situations anyway.

Gi and no-gi are similar, but ultimately different sports. You should train whichever you enjoy.

Re #1

Ultimately the use of the gi has taught and reinforced what a grip is for. 

That is gi or no gi. The use of the gi as a handle has taught me more about using a handle gi or no gi than no gi.

Understanding the gi for myself allowed me to understand the concepts of moving a person, moving myself around my opponent(s) or moving us around each other. This translates to no gi as well. The leverage points and points of contact just need to be adjusted. 


If it worked for you, then great, but those concepts can be understood without the involvement of a gi.
Edited: 23 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7256
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don’t hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don’t believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I’m just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.

23 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 32
Soul Gravy -
shen - 

Honestly, neither "gi" nor "no gi" make the most sense when it comes to training garments.

Jiu jitsu clothing would make more sense if we wore a uniform of durable pants, shoes and a durable t-shirt or maybe something more like Army BDUs.

You can choke people with clothes, obviously, but a kimono-style garment doesn't really make as much sense to master. We all spend a lot of time lerning the subtlties of choking people with clothes most people don't wear. 

Yeas a heavy winter coat is something like a gi, so why not wear a training garment cut like a heavy western, non-japanese coat?

 


I would also wonder why you're trying to collar choke someone in a street fight instead of either dropping elbows from on top or sweeping and standing back up if you're on bottom.

Drunk bro in law

Druggie or Homeless with blood borne diseases

He has a great chin

Less physical evidence and trauma

 

 

 

23 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 33
Calhoon -
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don’t hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don’t believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I’m just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.

I actually feel the same, but that's why I prefer the gi. There's greater understanding of grips. Whether they are naked or dressed.

23 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 34

Rote memorization is the lowest form of learning. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

It fails to integrate higher learning and conceptual understanding for on the fly adjustments. 

But But buffbagwell does not do rote memorization, I'll bet he's smart enough to improvise on the fly and make adjustments due to various factors, orientation , pressure, threat, etc. 

 

Teaching a class no gi so people can fight in clothing and naked is partly analogous to rote memorization.

If one's teaching a class, why not everyone be in a gi(most times)?

Then when teaching a technique show the different grips.

If you want them to do 10reps have 7 with the gi and 3 with no gi grips. If its 5reps the 3gi and 2 nogi. Verbalize and have them feel the differences in control.

 

 

 

 

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 64551
Calhoon - 
Tomato Can - Just to clarify my points:

1) No-gi techniques will always be applicable. So I consider it the more "universal" form of training. But sure, if self-defense and unarmed (not necessarily MMA) combat is really the goal, you'd have to train in both.

2) I don't feel that strongly about it, but it just strikes me as odd when I get the "gi is more realistic" argument from people who mostly play guard or use a lot of sport-oriented techniques anyway.

Number 1 is exactly why I think nogi is better overall for learning jiu-jitsu. If you can control and submit without any help from clothing then you are better prepared for the other aspects of grappling... gi, vale tudo, mma.

 

I can grapple in a gi. I am saying that so people know I don’t hate the gi. I hear people say that if you can grapple in a gi you can grapple in nogi but the opposite is not true. I don’t believe that. I understand the learning curve of guards and grip fighting when going from nogi to gi but I’m just saying I have seen the opposite as true also. Some decent gi players who are lost without their grips. 

 

I would never want my grappling to be reliant on if they are wearing the right clothing. That and I would never want to not have a guard that is not prepared for strikes... but that is a seperate issue.


100% agree with this. I only throw a gi on a handful of times a year, but I never feel THAT out of my depth. I play my no-gi game and add grips. Against some smaller guys I actually feel MORE dominant because the gi allows you to attach yourself to your opponent more easily. The only folks who can really mess me up are ones who specialize in entanglements like spider guard, leg lasso, etc. For those folks I need to play very conservatively.
17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 20513

Defence is much more important than offence in jiu jitsu. The gi is like wearing a weight vest for defence. You have to be much more efficient and precise with your defence and escapes in almost every situation while wearing the gi. You have to have better distance control and posture. Additionally, it slows things down which allows for most students to get more improvement out of rolling. When it comes time to roll, most people roll competitively, which means you won’t be getting most of your improvement from rolling because things move too quickly. The gi mitigates that. So, in short, the gi has made my defence much more efficient and precise.

17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 20514

Also, no gi encourages your control to be more precise, however these skills are not as important as your defensive skills.

17 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 46
demandango -

Defence is much more important than offence in jiu jitsu. The gi is like wearing a weight vest for defence. You have to be much more efficient and precise with your defence and escapes in almost every situation while wearing the gi. You have to have better distance control and posture. Additionally, it slows things down which allows for most students to get more improvement out of rolling. When it comes time to roll, most people roll competitively, which means you won’t be getting most of your improvement from rolling because things move too quickly. The gi mitigates that. So, in short, the gi has made my defence much more efficient and precise.

Exactly.

You put it very well.

 

 

 

17 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13069
Generally when people ask these questions they really dont care, they just want to argue lol

Anyway, I was a #nogi4life guy for many many years, then I finally thought I would give the gi a chance after doing very little over the years, I already had multiple years in No Gi training, but I wanted to expand and went full gi training

At first I hated it and thought people were cheating by holding onto my pants and passing me easily lol

But after some time, it all started to come together, so my answer to the question of how gi training made me better would be

Defending my guard and passing guard became so much better overall because you can no stimulate the amount of time you spend doing both (passing and defending) no gi as you can in gi, No gi is more frantic, slippery, more scrambled, it's fun and builds other attributes that the gi cant simulate, but I already had those from years of No gi

When I take the gi off my guard retention and passing is crisper and tighter then when I never trained Gi

When you are in roll after roll of guys grabbing your pants, gi etc...to pass and that battle is just relentless you learn to move you feet, legs, hips, etc to fight off a really good passing who has all the grips on you, it's a great training tool

And that's what the gi is for me, a training tool

But train what you want, people worry way to much what others are doing

The majority of my grappling has been No gi, but I am now a black belt in BJJ in the gi
17 days ago
3/20/14
Posts: 889

Learn to be hot, miserable, near suffocation levels and still think and function.

9 days ago
10/8/08
Posts: 2025
tell you what didnt help me when i tried to seio-nage a guy with just a t-shirt, i threw his tshirt instead and had to switch thai clinch foot sweep.
8 days ago
2/8/11
Posts: 699
liquidrob - Generally when people ask these questions they really dont care, they just want to argue lol

Anyway, I was a #nogi4life guy for many many years, then I finally thought I would give the gi a chance after doing very little over the years, I already had multiple years in No Gi training, but I wanted to expand and went full gi training

At first I hated it and thought people were cheating by holding onto my pants and passing me easily lol

But after some time, it all started to come together, so my answer to the question of how gi training made me better would be

Defending my guard and passing guard became so much better overall because you can no stimulate the amount of time you spend doing both (passing and defending) no gi as you can in gi, No gi is more frantic, slippery, more scrambled, it's fun and builds other attributes that the gi cant simulate, but I already had those from years of No gi

When I take the gi off my guard retention and passing is crisper and tighter then when I never trained Gi

When you are in roll after roll of guys grabbing your pants, gi etc...to pass and that battle is just relentless you learn to move you feet, legs, hips, etc to fight off a really good passing who has all the grips on you, it's a great training tool

And that's what the gi is for me, a training tool

But train what you want, people worry way to much what others are doing

The majority of my grappling has been No gi, but I am now a black belt in BJJ in the gi

I go back and forth with gi and no-gi myself. I really like the technical layer that the gi has added to my game, that has translated to my no-gi game. Same deal, having to deal with the grips and the friction has just made me better overall. Playing, no-gi my defenses are that much better. 

Conversely, no-gi has made my gi game better by not being overly reliant on grips and being better with my pins and weight distribution. But that wasn't the OP's question. 

That all being said, I really hate the overly esoteric gi games out there like lapel/worm guard and overly specialized chokes and the like that are just way too specific to wearing a big cottony bathrobe.