David Jacobs' BJJGround IBJJF 2021 - Heel hooks and reaping

18 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13558
No Gi, brown and black belts
18 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 26247

Very surprised to hear this. Is this coming out of nowhere? I know there has always been complaints and talks but this feels like it came out of thin air

18 days ago
9/12/06
Posts: 259

Being able to attack a reaped leg in no gi but not in the gi is just going to add another layer of confusion to the already ridiculous reaping rules. 

I can see the argument for not allowing heel hooks in the gi, but I should at least be able to ankle lock a reaped leg.

 

16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 4219

Great. Can we penalize guard pulling now while we’re at it?

16 days ago
3/18/05
Posts: 2292
The Diet Butcher -

Great. Can we penalize guard pulling now while we’re at it?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down there Speed Racer. IBJJF fixes one stupid aspect of the rule set every 10 years.

16 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13559
Without guard pulling we wouldn't be anywhere near as good as guards have become, penalizing pulling guard wouldn't be a good thing

16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 689
The Diet Butcher - 

Great. Can we penalize guard pulling now while we’re at it?


Besides the fact that guard pulling doesn't look like real fighting and doesn't have much utility in MMA, I don't understand why people want to get rid of it. I know there's an argument that it will improve wrestling and judo but do we really want to eat the many years that it will take for that to happen? As well as any unforseen meta-gaming where people might elect to not even try to go to the ground by just trying to appear more aggressive on the feet?

And I actually don't think an non-spectator sport like ours should try to dumb itself down to cater to fans that would never watch anyways. BJJ is already boring to watch and penalizing guard pulling would make it completely atrocious to watch.

The top player vs bottom player battle is the heart and soul of our sport. I don't get why we'd want to water ourselves down just to a lesser version of sports that already exist (Judo and Wrestling.)

ADCC penalizes guard pulling. But they aren't a BJJ organization and they also are still smart enough to allow guard pulling in the first half of all their matches outside of finals matches.
16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 691
liquidrob - Without guard pulling we wouldn't be anywhere near as good as guards have become, penalizing pulling guard wouldn't be a good thing


Not to mention that everything is sharpened by the flip side. The overall level of guard passing would also decline if guard pulling went away.

Tying this back to the heel hook legality. Heel hook defense is actually at an all time high among those in the know. Most of the people getting heel hooked in high level competitions don't know that game as well. Even at ADCC most of the people that got heel hooked last year were people that mostly did gi, were newer to high level no-gi, or weren't jiu-jitsu guys.

I know regular guys have a long way to catch up but heel hook defense would not be where it is right now without the big heel hook renaissance.
16 days ago
9/29/02
Posts: 24586
About fucking time.
16 days ago
4/30/06
Posts: 403

"The top player vs bottom player battle is the heart and soul of our sport." 

it was, but this will be watered away even more now. i approve the addition of the leg reaping and heel hooks (should be gi too), but they need to do something to reward top position more. i'm afraid we're going to see more butt scooting, and a whole generation of black belts who don't have any takedowns they could do at a decent level. 

16 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 26259
liquidrob - Without guard pulling we wouldn't be anywhere near as good as guards have become, penalizing pulling guard wouldn't be a good thing

Its all sort of artificial though.

16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 692
Rodney Ellis - 

"The top player vs bottom player battle is the heart and soul of our sport." 

it was, but this will be watered away even more now. i approve the addition of the leg reaping and heel hooks (should be gi too), but they need to do something to reward top position more. i'm afraid we're going to see more butt scooting, and a whole generation of black belts who don't have any takedowns they could do at a decent level. 


Real quick just wanted to say I've enjoyed watching you grapple over the years.

I agree the top vs bottom game has been watered down a bit now and there's more of a gray area. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm conflicted. One one hand I think the idea of "control before submission" instead of "position before submission" is a cool idea. And I play a lot of rolling kimuras, rolling head and arms, Leo Vieira seabelt rolls, and sacrificing my base to go for back attacks or submissions.

On the other hands I definitely miss watching more conventional guard retention and sweeping vs top pressure and passing. Right now I think you're right that there are less incentives to be on top. Especially with how common sub-only is these days.

I don't know what the best solution is but I still don't want to see penalization for pulling guard.
16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 693
TheBearStare - 
liquidrob - Without guard pulling we wouldn't be anywhere near as good as guards have become, penalizing pulling guard wouldn't be a good thing

Its all sort of artificial though.


I don't know if you mean pulling guard or sport grappling. But isn't it okay that it's artificial?

MMA is what I think people should pursue if they want the least artificial combat sport there is. It has the least rules and the most ways to win. There are changes I'd like to see in MMA: upkicks to kneeling opponents, 12-6 elbows, less standups during ground work, and more of the PRIDE style longer first rounds. Every other combat sport is neutered to some extent but isn't that okay?
16 days ago
11/10/05
Posts: 7493
mata_leaos - 
Rodney Ellis - 

"The top player vs bottom player battle is the heart and soul of our sport." 

it was, but this will be watered away even more now. i approve the addition of the leg reaping and heel hooks (should be gi too), but they need to do something to reward top position more. i'm afraid we're going to see more butt scooting, and a whole generation of black belts who don't have any takedowns they could do at a decent level. 


Real quick just wanted to say I've enjoyed watching you grapple over the years.

I agree the top vs bottom game has been watered down a bit now and there's more of a gray area. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm conflicted. One one hand I think the idea of "control before submission" instead of "position before submission" is a cool idea. And I play a lot of rolling kimuras, rolling head and arms, Leo Vieira seabelt rolls, and sacrificing my base to go for back attacks or submissions.

On the other hands I definitely miss watching more conventional guard retention and sweeping vs top pressure and passing. Right now I think you're right that there are less incentives to be on top. Especially with how common sub-only is these days.

I don't know what the best solution is but I still don't want to see penalization for pulling guard.

I agree that I'd like to see better takedowns and attempts to be in top position. However, the IBJJF point system at least does better at this than the sub only tournaments.

I have no wrestling or judo background but I've never pulled guard in comp out of principal for this reason.
15 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 995
The Diet Butcher -

Great. Can we penalize guard pulling now while we’re at it?

Great. Way to play like your opinion matters at all or as if you compete at all for it to affect you

15 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 696
Meatgrinder - 
mata_leaos - 
Rodney Ellis - 

"The top player vs bottom player battle is the heart and soul of our sport." 

it was, but this will be watered away even more now. i approve the addition of the leg reaping and heel hooks (should be gi too), but they need to do something to reward top position more. i'm afraid we're going to see more butt scooting, and a whole generation of black belts who don't have any takedowns they could do at a decent level. 


Real quick just wanted to say I've enjoyed watching you grapple over the years.

I agree the top vs bottom game has been watered down a bit now and there's more of a gray area. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm conflicted. One one hand I think the idea of "control before submission" instead of "position before submission" is a cool idea. And I play a lot of rolling kimuras, rolling head and arms, Leo Vieira seabelt rolls, and sacrificing my base to go for back attacks or submissions.

On the other hands I definitely miss watching more conventional guard retention and sweeping vs top pressure and passing. Right now I think you're right that there are less incentives to be on top. Especially with how common sub-only is these days.

I don't know what the best solution is but I still don't want to see penalization for pulling guard.

I agree that I'd like to see better takedowns and attempts to be in top position. However, the IBJJF point system at least does better at this than the sub only tournaments.

I have no wrestling or judo background but I've never pulled guard in comp out of principal for this reason.

I also think the IBJJF does this better than sub only. I also think IBJJF rules often encourages more subs than sub only. That may sound crazy but there are way more incentives for the person getting swept, passed, mounted, or back taken to move around and hustle to stop the scoring and then open up submissions.

In sub only it's more likely to see people eating bad positions and allowing offense to happen to them. As long as they keep their elbows tight and defend their neck it's safer than wrestling up on a single (risking your neck or arms) or turning away (risking your back and neck) to stop a guard pass.

The RNC is the strongest submission without the gi and yet in sub-only tournaments it's actually not that common unless the match is EBI rules and it goes to overtime.
15 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 4221
mideastgrappler -
The Diet Butcher -

Great. Can we penalize guard pulling now while we’re at it?

Great. Way to play like your opinion matters at all or as if you compete at all for it to affect you

You’re on a discussion forum, FYI