David Jacobs' BJJGround IBJJF rules are a joke

4/18/11 12:38 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37743
Another IBJJF tournament, another series of absurd calls due to their utterly nonsensical rules and enforcement system.

Firstly, something has to be done about the knee reaping nonsense. People are getting DQ'd on unintentional ticky-tack infractions that pose absolutely no danger to the opponent. I had an teammate DQ'd while up 8-0 with under 1 minute remaining on a phantom knee reap that nobody but the ref seemed to see. Another competitor (not a teammate) got somehow DQ'd for a knee reap from behind his opponent while trying to take the back. This is insanity. The rule needs to be better defined and there needs to be a reasonable warning system in place rather than the "instant DQ on a whim" system that is in place right now. What is it going to take for something to be done about this? Was the absurd Mike Fowler DQ not high profile enough? Does Marcelo Garcia have to get DQ'd at the Worlds because his foot slips momentarily while working his anaconda guard for a change to be considered? The most hysterical part of all this, of course, is that knee reaping is mentioned NOWHERE on the IBJJF website. It's quite literally an unwritten rule that you just have to know by word of mouth.

Secondly, the distinctions between sweeps, takedowns, and non-point scoring reversals need to be clarified and reworked. On Saturday a teammate of mine was playing guard. He was briefly passed but not held in place for long enough to have points scored against him. He rolled to his stomach and successfully hit a double leg. He was awarded no points. I spoke with a referee afterwards and this was how it was explained to me:

It was not a sweep because a sweep requires having guard.

It was not a takedown because the opponent had both knees on the ground.

This is a truly bizarre and nonsensical loophole. Effectively it creates a situation where a fighter is encouraged to accept a reversal rather than fight it. As it was explained to me, an opponent needs at least one knee off the ground for a takedown to be scored. So in effect, it was more beneficial for my teammate's opponent to simply stay on his knees and fall over and accept the reversal, rather than attempt to sprawl or get to his feet and try to fight it. How does this make any sense at all?

I have other issues with the rules as well, but these 2 just stuck out like a sore thumb on Saturday.
4/18/11 1:16 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37744
I think one was and one wasn't. I honestly don't think that had anything to do with it, though. I just think the rules fucking suck.
4/18/11 1:43 PM
8/1/09
Posts: 569
Yeah the rules suck. The sweep rules seem to be on a ref to ref basis. And the knee reaping thing is pretty ridiculous. Phone Post
4/18/11 1:45 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3527
100% agree on the knee reaping. I think the rule should be eliminated altogether. I have heard of occasional injuries resulting from reaping but there are far more injuries resulting from takedowns and kimuras.

As for your takedown example, under IBJJF rules, a takedown cannot be initiated from the ground. If your friend rolled to his stomach and initiated the takedown from the ground it would not count. One may disagree with the rule but it sounds to me like the referee was correct.

I have two beefs with IBJJF rules.

1. They give preferential treatment to throws vs. wrestling-style takedowns.

2. Sitting up after a failed footlock attempt is scored as a sweep.
4/18/11 1:52 PM
8/26/03
Posts: 604
I went to the referee course during the PAN-AMs and the referee is correct in his wording.

"It was not a sweep because a sweep requires having guard.(more or less the legs have to be involved with the motion)

It was not a take down because the opponent had both knees on the ground.(BOTH opponents need to be standing during the initiation of the take down. If you start your take down on one knee it is not counted)
4/18/11 1:53 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37748
Ray Blackburn - 
As for your takedown example, under IBJJF rules, a takedown cannot be initiated from the ground. If your friend rolled to his stomach and initiated the takedown from the ground it would not count. One may disagree with the rule but it sounds to me like the referee was correct.


I understand this is the rule, but I find it to be absurd. If I have my opponent in side control and he rolls over and goes for a takedown, this rule effectively provides a disincentive for me to sprawl and try to stop him.
4/18/11 1:55 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37749
bryan1973 - 

It was not a take down because the opponent had both knees on the ground.(BOTH opponents need to be standing during the initiation of the take down. If you start your take down on one knee it is not counted)


Either this is not the case or it is not scored consistently as such.

I was in a tournament a couple of months ago where a guy rolled from side control to take me down. I sprawled at first but then ended up pulling guard. He was given 2 points.
4/18/11 2:11 PM
8/26/03
Posts: 605
Trust me most of the Q&A time during the training course was spent on this very question..The refs are confused as well. When Mansur was asked why something was this way or that way..He simply answered "because its the rules".

A lot of what I learned during the course is not defined in written rule. I think the best solution is to sit down with a native speaking English/Portuguese technical writer and clearly define the rules on paper. .


Tomato Can - 
bryan1973 - 

It was not a take down because the opponent had both knees on the ground.(BOTH opponents need to be standing during the initiation of the take down. If you start your take down on one knee it is not counted)


Either this is not the case or it is not scored consistently as such.

I was in a tournament a couple of months ago where a guy rolled from side control to take me down. I sprawled at first but then ended up pulling guard. He was given 2 points.
4/18/11 2:14 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37751
I didn't complain at all at the time. I thought that I was pulling guard when the guy already had a hold of my legs, so he should get takedown points. However, the way you're describing it, there shouldn't have been any points awarded because the guy was on his knees the whole time.
4/18/11 2:21 PM
9/6/06
Posts: 502
http://www.youtube.com/user/AZSBJJF

check out this account, explains pretty much all the rules
4/18/11 2:30 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37753
Just because the rules can be explained doesn't mean they don't suck.
4/18/11 2:37 PM
9/6/06
Posts: 503
knee reaping rule? im glad its there because if not a lot of the top competitors would all have blown out knees. as with heel hooks.
4/18/11 2:43 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37754
pray for japan - knee reaping rule? im glad its there because if not a lot of the top competitors would all have blown out knees. as with heel hooks.


Either you didn't read my initial post or you don't understand my grievance with the rule.
4/18/11 3:02 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 61055
tomato can = MRC!

lol

bryan1973 - Trust me most of the Q&A time during the training course was spent on this very question..The refs are confused as well. When Mansur was asked why something was this way or that way..He simply answered "because its the rules".

A lot of what I learned during the course is not defined in written rule. I think the best solution is to sit down with a native speaking English/Portuguese technical writer and clearly define the rules on paper. .


Alvaro has a point on that.  The rules meeting is to explain what the rule is.  The meeting would last for 48 hours if he allowed for a debate regarding why the rule is X instead of Y.

As I told tomato can on NHBGear, Marcelo Ribeiro (next in line under Prof. Alvaro Mansur) told us the rules are being rewritten to include updates and to make them clearer.
 
4/18/11 3:02 PM
1/2/08
Posts: 393
The rule makes sense to me. What you are describing is a reversal. Whether you turned to your knees, or bridged and rolled. They have chosen to define the knee contact with the ground as the line in the sand. Granted there is gray area, but there will be with every rule.

What would your line in the sand involve? Where do you draw the line between a reversal and a sweep/takedown?

No points are applied for reversals (in most tournaments), does that encourage someone to flop over when someone attempts it?

4/18/11 3:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37755
TPK done found me out!!

Next time I see you at a tournament I'll introduce myself. I've definitely seen you at a couple before but you always look busy.
4/18/11 3:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37756
LurkingOtis - The rule makes sense to me. What you are describing is a reversal. Whether you turned to your knees, or bridged and rolled. They have chosen to define the knee contact with the ground as the line in the sand. Granted there is gray area, but there will be with every rule.

What would your line in the sand involve? Where do you draw the line between a reversal and a sweep/takedown?

No points are applied for reversals (in most tournaments), does that encourage someone to flop over when someone attempts it?


Personally, I say that if you're in a neutral position and you put the other guy on his ass, that should be worth 2 points.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if even reversals from side control or mount (like upa) were worth 2 points, but that's another argument.
4/18/11 3:42 PM
9/6/06
Posts: 504
Tomato Can - 
pray for japan - knee reaping rule? im glad its there because if not a lot of the top competitors would all have blown out knees. as with heel hooks.


Either you didn't read my initial post or you don't understand my grievance with the rule.


sorry. i was just sharing my opinion since you implied that the rule sucks, which was why i asked first whether it was the knee reaping rule that you thought sucked.

is there any video of the position you're describing?
4/18/11 4:13 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 37758
The knee reaping rule is one of the rules I'm taking issue with, but it's more an issue of enforcement. They've set it up so that it's an instant DQ, regardless of the intentionality or severity of the foul. It's ridiculous and unfair to the competitors.
4/18/11 5:59 PM
9/10/05
Posts: 313
don't reap the knee... Simple as that.
4/18/11 7:10 PM
2/2/08
Posts: 4948
ttt
4/18/11 7:16 PM
12/19/00
Posts: 1922
Was this in NY? The west coast ones have a little more experience.
4/18/11 8:34 PM
9/16/08
Posts: 398
I agree with everything you said....

but, as long as you and your friends pay money to the IBJJF things will continue. Hell, they will get worse.

Support every grappling event but them and convince people who share your view to do the same.
4/18/11 10:21 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 1516
Yet another thread whining about the IBJJF. Seriously, this is getting old and everyone who complains about the IBJJF while still entering their tournaments is just a bitch. If you enter their tournaments, while knowing there are a ton of complaints, then you empower them to keep business as usual so quit bitching.
Edited: 4/18/11 11:43 PM
3/3/08
Posts: 499
Name a tournament that is better organized with better rules.

All the rules prevent some type of loophole, and upholds the integrity of sport jiu jitsu.

However, I saw a lot of guys at the Pan DQ'd for knee reaps that could have been simple warnings without interupting the flow of the match, however, these players were DQ'd. I feel the instant DQ for mild infractions should results in a warning or penalty, not an instant DQ.