David Jacobs' BJJGround Most disliked Gracie?

9/28/15 7:11 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2321
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.
9/28/15 7:49 PM
2/15/14
Posts: 190
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

sorry, unrelated but reading your post was hilarious due to your username.
9/28/15 7:55 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2322
^ thanks, lol
9/28/15 8:31 PM
12/18/03
Posts: 16556
graciesrule -
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.
They should make a Netflix series with those stories...

Wagner Moura could play Rorion. Phone Post 3.0
9/28/15 8:34 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3286
That would kick the shit out of both versions of "house of cards"
9/28/15 8:39 PM
2/2/08
Posts: 10057
shen - 
TheBearStare - If you are a close friend, have some beneficial connection, or someone famous Rener treats you way different. otherwise Rener talks down to you as a fan or as a mark that needs to be sold on a product.

That was my experience.

 


Sounds like a lot of salespeople I know
9/29/15 12:48 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 3291
Quote about Reylson from Art Davies book,



"Apparently, Rorion’s cousin Reylson Gracie (the son of Carlos) had been making some threats. And from the gossip that Kathy had heard from her staff, Rorion was concerned that
Reylson was going to show up in Denver looking for the type of fight that didn’t involve jiu-jitsu, but
perhaps bullets. I stopped Kathy, and said to her that I didn’t even want to know if any of this was
true. There was already far too much for me to worry about, without getting involved with yet another
Gracie Family melodrama."
9/29/15 12:48 AM
9/12/04
Posts: 12552
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

anyone can use the term gracie jiu jitsu ,what are you talking about?the triangle symbol I have only seen about 50 logo's with a triangle.

defend him just by saying he does what every company in America does.do you really know what the suit was about or just going off what ppl say?
9/29/15 2:32 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 3300
why did rickson have to cover the word gracie on his sign back in the day.
9/29/15 3:11 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 2323
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

anyone can use the term gracie jiu jitsu ,what are you talking about?the triangle symbol I have only seen about 50 logo's with a triangle.

defend him just by saying he does what every company in America does.do you really know what the suit was about or just going off what ppl say?

I read the lawsuit over 15 years ago so I do not remember all the details but I know the family could not use the Gracie JJ name. Carlson said he had to call it by his first name Carlson Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Ralph & Cesar called it Gracie Systems, Renzo just started calling it BJJ. And explain the trademark on the original GJJ symbol ? I guess Rorion owned and designed it?
9/29/15 9:44 AM
3/18/02
Posts: 68326
"They should make a Netflix series with those stories...

Wagner Moura could play Rorion. "

brilliant!
9/29/15 10:25 AM
9/12/04
Posts: 12553
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

anyone can use the term gracie jiu jitsu ,what are you talking about?the triangle symbol I have only seen about 50 logo's with a triangle.

defend him just by saying he does what every company in America does.do you really know what the suit was about or just going off what ppl say?

I read the lawsuit over 15 years ago so I do not remember all the details but I know the family could not use the Gracie JJ name. Carlson said he had to call it by his first name Carlson Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Ralph & Cesar called it Gracie Systems, Renzo just started calling it BJJ. And explain the trademark on the original GJJ symbol ? I guess Rorion owned and designed it?

you are correct and whats wrong with that?
9/29/15 12:48 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3802
Although almost all of the Gracies have their critics, the most universally disliked member of the family would HAVE to be Rorion based upon what I've heard over the past 20 years being around the art/sport. I would say the reasons are as follows:

1. The lawsuits. In the most famous suit, Carley sued Rorion so Rorion counter-sued and ended up getting a nice sized judgment. But Rorion HAS sued family members before in lesser-known suits, as I understand it. For everyone that knows Renzo, ask him about whether or not Rorion sued family members back in the 90s.

2. The business practices. Rorion purportedly used family members' lack of English to take advantage of them back in the day, as well. I believe there was was a contract with Rickson that kept Rickson from fighting in the United States without paying Rorion a ridiculously high percentage of his earnings. I've heard other stories as well. For me personally, I think it was incredibly "ballsy" to introduce family members as representatives of GJJ on the GIA tapes, but then later forbid them from using the name "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" to market their own schools.

3. Probably most offensive things I've heard said about Rorion surround complaints that he advanced a revisionist history. Rorion SIGNIFICANTLY downplayed Carlos Sr.'s significance in the family and GJJ history, and essentially made Helio the mastermind of the whole thing. Others who were around during those years have said that, although Helio was a great champion, Carlos was the partriarch. Aside from that, I've personally heard many members of the Gracie family say that Rolls (not Carlos OR Helio) should be credited as the family's biggest innovator of jiu jitsu.

I only met Rorion once . . . at Metamoris. He was a gentlemen to me. Like most people who are criticized, my guess he probably earned some of it, but not all of it.
9/29/15 1:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 7670
According to Reila Gracie's book the tension and drama between members of the Gracie family is old and deep.

There were tensions between George Gracie and his two brothers Carlos and Helio.

There were tensions between Helio and his nephews. There were tensions between cousins. There were tensions between brothers....

The Gracie family, like any large family has its share of tension and trouble among the family members.
9/29/15 2:38 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 4149
m.g - According to Reila Gracie's book the tension and drama between members of the Gracie family is old and deep.

There were tensions between George Gracie and his two brothers Carlos and Helio.

There were tensions between Helio and his nephews. There were tensions between cousins. There were tensions between brothers....

The Gracie family, like any large family has its share of tension and trouble among the family members.

This!

9/29/15 3:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2325
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

anyone can use the term gracie jiu jitsu ,what are you talking about?the triangle symbol I have only seen about 50 logo's with a triangle.

defend him just by saying he does what every company in America does.do you really know what the suit was about or just going off what ppl say?

I read the lawsuit over 15 years ago so I do not remember all the details but I know the family could not use the Gracie JJ name. Carlson said he had to call it by his first name Carlson Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Ralph & Cesar called it Gracie Systems, Renzo just started calling it BJJ. And explain the trademark on the original GJJ symbol ? I guess Rorion owned and designed it?

you are correct and whats wrong with that?

I think that it was wrong to treat his family that way. Rorion was all about challenging clueless fighters but when Carley asked to settle the lawsuit with a fight, Rorion refused. Can't blame Rorion though his record was 0-8 verses Carley in family challenge matches. I'm surprised Rickson did solve it with Rorion with a fight also.
9/29/15 3:48 PM
10/3/12
Posts: 515
I think all trademark disputes should be settled with fights. Makes a lot of sense. I'm sure the courts would recognize it as well.
9/29/15 5:14 PM
3/18/05
Posts: 63
I demand Trial by Combat! Phone Post 3.0
9/29/15 5:52 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3323
^just like the old man in London with all the parking tickets
9/29/15 6:16 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 2262
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - 
12 - 
graciesrule - Who is your most disliked Gracie and why? For me it's Rorion for suing his own family and try to control the family being a midlevel(in rank) black belt, also the lies about Carlos Sr. Although Helio and Carlos told a few whoppers themselves.

so rorion did what any other company does to protect it's name and you dislike him for that.now if his family had a good lawyer they would have told them about Armstrong carpet vs bud Armstrong about 1972,that nobody could stop you from using your name for your business

What company was that? Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Im pretty sure Carlos Sr founded it, not Rorion. And Rorion was a midlevel black belt(6 th degree). Carley who is the son of the founder, here in the USA first(1972) and a senior black belt(8 th degree) cannot use the term Gracie JJ or the Triangle symbol?
Not to mention lying to Carlson, another senior black belt because he could not speak english. Not to mention the shennigans he pulled on his own brother Rickson about fighting in the USA, another senior black belt because Rickson got his 7 th degree when Rorion was still 6 th degree, then Helio jumped Rorion in rank over him. So Rorion back stabs his family, and does not even follow ettiquette in any martial art by respecting seniority in rank. So you defend him.

anyone can use the term gracie jiu jitsu ,what are you talking about?the triangle symbol I have only seen about 50 logo's with a triangle.

defend him just by saying he does what every company in America does.do you really know what the suit was about or just going off what ppl say?

I read the lawsuit over 15 years ago so I do not remember all the details but I know the family could not use the Gracie JJ name. Carlson said he had to call it by his first name Carlson Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Ralph & Cesar called it Gracie Systems, Renzo just started calling it BJJ. And explain the trademark on the original GJJ symbol ? I guess Rorion owned and designed it?

you are correct and whats wrong with that?

I think that it was wrong to treat his family that way. Rorion was all about challenging clueless fighters but when Carley asked to settle the lawsuit with a fight, Rorion refused. Can't blame Rorion though his record was 0-8 verses Carley in family challenge matches. I'm surprised Rickson did solve it with Rorion with a fight also.

I think the point you are missing is that family had MANY rivalries and disputes long before Rorion was around. The family was a dynasty with countless goings-on.

What most also miss is that Rorion was way ahead of his time when it came to promotion and marketing. He was extremely effective and took a LOT of financial chances that allow the members to earn a living here. He was a businessman and knew what he had to do to create and protect a brand presence in the United States.
People like, Carlson, for example, were terrible businessmen. Rorion was not. An he is sincere in his dealings with students.

Plus, he was the one that took on all comers, and he had a lot of fights. His "fighting" Jiu-jitsu technique and knowledge was imply top notch. Too bad he couldn't have a body like Vitor Belfort.

Simply labelling someone as "good" or "bad" based on drama that you are no a part of, is disingenuous at best.


9/29/15 6:33 PM
10/27/03
Posts: 12291
m.g - According to Reila Gracie's book the tension and drama between members of the Gracie family is old and deep.

There were tensions between George Gracie and his two brothers Carlos and Helio.

There were tensions between Helio and his nephews. There were tensions between cousins. There were tensions between brothers....

The Gracie family, like any large family has its share of tension and trouble among the family members.

So to clarify, you're saying there was tensions?
9/29/15 11:41 PM
6/15/07
Posts: 11445
Romo Gracie. Phone Post 3.0
9/30/15 4:39 AM
3/27/14
Posts: 229
Badmonkey - Romo Gracie. Phone Post 3.0

LOL

10/2/15 9:01 AM
11/26/07
Posts: 2492
Randjob Gracie.


Too many calluses on his hands.



10/2/15 12:52 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 2295
bigraydaddy - Randjob Gracie.


Too many calluses on his hands.




I'm just going out of a limb here to say I'm the one that actually came up with the "Randjob Gracie" moniker sometime in the late 1990s. It was well-received on Mousel's at the time. Now it is old hat.
that's my big claim to fame on the forums.