David Jacobs' BJJGround NYC jujutsu style ground techniques

19 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3125
I recently have been revieweing some older videos of various New York City style jujutsu like Miyama ryu, Sanuces Ryu, Yoshitsune, Samurai, Vee Arnis Jitsu, Sugar Ryu and all these arts are clueless on the ground. These black belts and masters have less knowledge than a 6 month BJJ white belt. These videos are date early 90's or before. I hope as years went on the brought in BJJ instructors to broaden their knowledge.
Edited: 19 days ago
3/27/04
Posts: 3203

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...

19 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3126
Stephan Kesting - 

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...


I guess I expected when you are a Jujutsu system have some ground knowledge. Maybe not as extensive as BJJ but at least a basic Judo knowledge. But yes you are correct now that you mention it west coast arts like Danzan Ryu, Budoshin, Small Circle are just as bad.
19 days ago
6/30/14
Posts: 34442
Stephan Kesting - 

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...


I did not know you posted here

love your stuff.

I saved your 7P formula I first saw a few years ago

proper planning and prevention prevent piss poor performance
19 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11597

they're some rolling and flying head scissors fools though. You forgot to add the depasquales

19 days ago
3/27/04
Posts: 3204
Fan of Fanboys -
Stephan Kesting - 

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...


I did not know you posted here

love your stuff.

I saved your 7P formula I first saw a few years ago

proper planning and prevention prevent piss poor performance

Thank you!  I’ve been here under my name since 2004 and before that under another name (exjudoka) since c. 2000. I don’t get to spend as much time posting or replying as I would like but I’m usually checking in a couple times a week. 

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3127
de braco - 

they're some rolling and flying head scissors fools though. You forgot to add the depasquales


Yoshitsune is the Depasquales style, later combat JJ
Edited: 18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35760

You just don’t understand these styles because they are designed for the battlefield, not some pajama wrestling match.

During the early Edo Period, Sugar Ryu was said to be responsible for quashing many a shogun uprising.

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 26724
Stephan Kesting - 

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...


sambo my friend.

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11598
graciesrule -
de braco - 

they're some rolling and flying head scissors fools though. You forgot to add the depasquales


Yoshitsune is the Depasquales style, later combat JJ

i did not see the yoshitsune in your post, i was referring more to the nin-ju-ka of jr though.

this sums up the afro-centric NY "jiu-jitsu" scene perfectly.

 

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18 days ago
3/27/04
Posts: 3205
yusul -
Stephan Kesting - 

I don’t think this is anything unique to NYC. Prior to the explosion of BJJ in the mid 90’s all arts, with the possible exception of ne-waza centric Judo and the rare non-fraudulent catch wrestling school, really had much of a clue...


sambo my friend.

Yes, absolutely.  And I also forgot to include shootwrestling which was definitely around in the 90’s

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8974

There is usually no need to go to the ground after you’ve gouged an opponent’s eyes out or ripped his balls off. 

18 days ago
11/13/09
Posts: 3308

in addition to breaking the wrist and walking away

Edited: 18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35761
I trained with Prof. Powell once (founder of Sanuces Ryu), at a seminar. At the end, the instructors would each come out and do a move "dance battle style"; each trying to top the other one. At some point it went from simply unusable techniques to complete and utter insanity.

Being "flashy" seemed to be a core value.

The strange paradox of these "NY" guys is they're from urban areas and always talk about, "Man on the three comes up to you... ". They SOUND like they're "keeping it real" but then the techniques are theses super flashy Aiki jujutsu based 12 count techniques.

Very strange stuff.

West Coast's popular (Kodenkan) Danzan Ryu is much more simple; It's an off-shoot of early Judo from a legit guy who didn't want to join the Kodokan because he wanted to keep a lot of the more Koryu jujitsu elements in his style. it's kata based and as a result not very functional (i.e. wimpy Judo) but in theory it makes a lot more sense than the flashy NY styles. A lot of the old school DZR guys like Wally Jay, were also Judoka who did randori. Those guys are a different animal from the "typical" modern Danzan Ryu person today. In the late 1970s Danzan Ryu was my first art and we actually held our own Judo tournaments (We were affiliated with Wally Jay). Not the case any longer. Danzan Ryu & Judo are very separate now.

I did maybe 4 seminars in Ketsugo Jujitsu with Harlold Broscious (legendarily bonkers former frogman) & some Seki Ryu with Jack Seki's student Skip Koppkee (sp?) --another important west coast style you don't see much at all today. I think George Kirby's Budoshin jujitsu is a combination of the three above listed styles.

I have a soft spot for all these styles because of the wave of nostalgia they bring back. But yeah... on the ground... not so great. and honestly, on the feet... not so great either. Nice thing that they did was have ALL these seminars & camps with a dozen instructors teaching different stuff all day, for a reasonable price. In BJJ seminars tend to be expensive and just one guy.
18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11602

i still haunt ebay on the prowl for that curly harold broscious instructional with the old lady beating up a doll and the dog running thru shots

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3128
shen - I trained with Prof. Powell once (founder of Sanuces Ryu), at a seminar. At the end, the instructors would each come out and do a move "dance battle style"; each trying to top the other one. At some point it went from simply unusable techniques to complete and utter insanity.

Being "flashy" seemed to be a core value.


The strange paradox of these "NY" guys is they are from urban areas and always talk about, "Man on the three comes up to you", they SOUND like they are keeping it "real" but then the techniques are theses super flashy Aiki jujutsu based 12 count techniques.

Very strange stuff.

West Coast's popular Danzan Ryu is much more simple; It's an off-shoot of early Judo from a legit guy who didn't want to join the Kodokan because he wanted to keep a lot of the Koryu jujitsu elements in the style. it's kata based and as a result not very functional (it's wimpy Judo) but in theory makes a lot more sense than the flashy NY styles. But a lot of the old school guys like Wally Jay, were also Judoka who did randori. Those guys are a different animal from the "typical" modern Danzan Ryu person today. In the late 1970s Danzan Ryu was my first art and we actually held our own Judo tournaments. Not the case any longer.

I did maybe 4 seminars in Ketsugo Jujitsu with Harlold Broscious (legendarily bonkers former frogman) & some Seki Ryu with Jack Seki's student Skip Koppkee (sp?) --another important west coast style you don't see much today. I think George Kirby's Budoshin is a combination of the three above listed styles.

I have a soft spot for all these styles because of the wave of nostalgia they bring back. But yeah... on the ground... not so great. and honestly, on the feet... not so great either.

Nice thing that they did was have ALL these seminars & camps with 1 dozen instructors teaching different stuff all day, for a reasonable price. In BJJ seminars tend to be expensive and just one guy.

What's crazy is how much government training Moses Powell did, FBI, DEA, Secret service. Did he demonstrate the infamous one finger roll?
18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8977

I don’t care what anyone says, at the Quiet Storm Dojo they keep it real.  

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35762
graciesrule - 
shen - I trained with Prof. Powell once (founder of Sanuces Ryu), at a seminar. At the end, the instructors would each come out and do a move "dance battle style"; each trying to top the other one. At some point it went from simply unusable techniques to complete and utter insanity.

Being "flashy" seemed to be a core value.


The strange paradox of these "NY" guys is they are from urban areas and always talk about, "Man on the three comes up to you", they SOUND like they are keeping it "real" but then the techniques are theses super flashy Aiki jujutsu based 12 count techniques.

Very strange stuff.

West Coast's popular Danzan Ryu is much more simple; It's an off-shoot of early Judo from a legit guy who didn't want to join the Kodokan because he wanted to keep a lot of the Koryu jujitsu elements in the style. it's kata based and as a result not very functional (it's wimpy Judo) but in theory makes a lot more sense than the flashy NY styles. But a lot of the old school guys like Wally Jay, were also Judoka who did randori. Those guys are a different animal from the "typical" modern Danzan Ryu person today. In the late 1970s Danzan Ryu was my first art and we actually held our own Judo tournaments. Not the case any longer.

I did maybe 4 seminars in Ketsugo Jujitsu with Harlold Broscious (legendarily bonkers former frogman) & some Seki Ryu with Jack Seki's student Skip Koppkee (sp?) --another important west coast style you don't see much today. I think George Kirby's Budoshin is a combination of the three above listed styles.

I have a soft spot for all these styles because of the wave of nostalgia they bring back. But yeah... on the ground... not so great. and honestly, on the feet... not so great either.

Nice thing that they did was have ALL these seminars & camps with 1 dozen instructors teaching different stuff all day, for a reasonable price. In BJJ seminars tend to be expensive and just one guy.

What's crazy is how much government training Moses Powell did, FBI, DEA, Secret service. Did he demonstrate the infamous one finger roll?

No, he did not.

Seemed like a very nice gentleman and this was not too long before he died. He didn't demo much at all personally that day.

For people not familiar, picture Black Isralights doing Aiki jujutsu and you get the basic idea.
18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35763
Fast Pitch - 

I don’t care what anyone says, at the Quiet Storm Dojo they keep it real.  


Eye to eye, my brother.

The more melanin deprived ground dwellers on here can't appreciate the pharaonic energy flowing through the hands of a TRUE master.
17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3130
Kokushi Ryu also out of New York City founded by Nouyashii Higashi is also a Judo high dan rank and his son was a National level Judoka.
17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35767
graciesrule - Kokushi Ryu also out of New York City founded by Nouyashii Higashi is also a Judo high dan rank and his son was a National level Judoka.

I watched his videos way back when.

It's pretty much a very straight mix of Tomiki Aikido, Judo & some kind of karate(Shotokan?).

Very un-weird stuff.
17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8983
shen -
graciesrule - Kokushi Ryu also out of New York City founded by Nouyashii Higashi is also a Judo high dan rank and his son was a National level Judoka.

I watched his videos way back when.

It's pretty much a very straight mix of Tomiki Aikido, Judo & some kind of karate(Shotokan?).

Very un-weird stuff.

Sounds like it would not work in the streets of Harlem.  

17 days ago
2/2/08
Posts: 12578
shen - 
Fast Pitch - 

I don’t care what anyone says, at the Quiet Storm Dojo they keep it real.  


Eye to eye, my brother.

The more melanin deprived ground dwellers on here can't appreciate the pharaonic energy flowing through the hands of a TRUE master.

I can't believe these snake oil account executives still exist.
17 days ago
3/15/15
Posts: 12511
I trained several styles of Ju-Jutsu prior to the UFC arriving. Absolutely none of them had groundwork as we think of it today, and other only couple schools that did, had Judo stuff.

People who did not trained in the 1980s and prior do not understand what martial arts were like back then.

I know someone that trained Vee ARnis JJ and he was more than capable of handling himself in the streets. A rudimentary knowledge of grappling is needed for most real self-defense situations.
11 days ago
2/28/06
Posts: 10464
shen - I trained with Prof. Powell once (founder of Sanuces Ryu), at a seminar. At the end, the instructors would each come out and do a move "dance battle style"; each trying to top the other one. At some point it went from simply unusable techniques to complete and utter insanity.

Being "flashy" seemed to be a core value.

The strange paradox of these "NY" guys is they're from urban areas and always talk about, "Man on the three comes up to you... ". They SOUND like they're "keeping it real" but then the techniques are theses super flashy Aiki jujutsu based 12 count techniques.

Very strange stuff.

West Coast's popular (Kodenkan) Danzan Ryu is much more simple; It's an off-shoot of early Judo from a legit guy who didn't want to join the Kodokan because he wanted to keep a lot of the more Koryu jujitsu elements in his style. it's kata based and as a result not very functional (i.e. wimpy Judo) but in theory it makes a lot more sense than the flashy NY styles. A lot of the old school DZR guys like Wally Jay, were also Judoka who did randori. Those guys are a different animal from the "typical" modern Danzan Ryu person today. In the late 1970s Danzan Ryu was my first art and we actually held our own Judo tournaments (We were affiliated with Wally Jay). Not the case any longer. Danzan Ryu & Judo are very separate now.

I did maybe 4 seminars in Ketsugo Jujitsu with Harlold Broscious (legendarily bonkers former frogman) & some Seki Ryu with Jack Seki's student Skip Koppkee (sp?) --another important west coast style you don't see much at all today. I think George Kirby's Budoshin jujitsu is a combination of the three above listed styles.

I have a soft spot for all these styles because of the wave of nostalgia they bring back. But yeah... on the ground... not so great. and honestly, on the feet... not so great either. Nice thing that they did was have ALL these seminars & camps with a dozen instructors teaching different stuff all day, for a reasonable price. In BJJ seminars tend to be expensive and just one guy.

I have a soft spot for them too. At least I got to learn ukemi and learn wristlocks I still use in BJJ.

The turning point for me was when they said, "Against a wrestler..."

I said, "I'm a wrestler...and all due respect...that would not work."

Then, I showed them. There was a long silence.

Later, after attending my first Royce seminar, I showed them a few things. They said, "Well, I'd do this and that..."

Of course, it did not work and I mounted them and choked them out. All of the blackbelts. I was gone after that.