David Jacobs' BJJGround This is the pinnacle of the art

11/3/19 3:50 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 17893
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.
27 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3799
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

26 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 17937
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.


I don't recall saying they wouldn't? But I'm sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.
21 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3807
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.


I don't recall saying they wouldn't? But I'm sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don't mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don't?

20 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4414
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

20 days ago
6/22/03
Posts: 6772
For people saying it doesn't matter if they train an ifbjj rule set: those of us who object to the 50/50 leglock game, etc., are likely old school guys. We have a purist view of bjj as a fighting art. For me, the art should focus on a fight plan to close the distance, take down, mount, strike, then choke or arm lock. That is an effective fight plan proven through years of challenge matches, vale tudo fights, etc. It isn't quite as easy against modern highly trained mma fighters who are takedown defence experts, and so forth. But it is still (arguably) the most effective fight plan against 99.999% of the population.

The more bjj moves away from that basic fight plan and the more it evolves into a system designed to game a certain rule set, the less effective it becomes for a self defence system. Two people rolling around in circles while grabbing each other's ankles is ridiculous.

So yeah, high level practitioners of ifbjj ruleset sport jiu jitsu would still choke the fuck out of most of us here. But if their goal was fighting ability, then they have wasted a lot of time with useless stuff to the detriment of more effective training.
20 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35656
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Edited: 20 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3809
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.
 

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I'm just curious when it's okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.

20 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4415

The best part is most of the guys who are sticklers for the “old school real Jiu Jitsu” never even competed much or fought MMA, but love to take stabs at the guys who compete at a high level and could kick their ass. My other favorite part is they love to talk about “pressure” when the pressure passing of today is light years ahead of before.  

20 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4416
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?

20 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4417

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 

20 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13736

what does competition or fighting mma have to do with "old school real jiujitsu".

What does competition have to do with fighting?.....whose ass they kicking and in what format? Ive seen people eat punches....i seen how they react despite their grappling training. FUCKING LOL! My fr9end had a black belt in his LE recruit class that had no clue about using his skills for fighting. But if you mean beating up a drunk....sure.

 

20 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35662
Caladan - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.
 

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I'm just curious when it's okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.


That particular sweep can be done no gi, so certainly has 'connection' to fighting.

I don't know where the exact line is, but I know when I see people play in a way where it would be very hard to do most of that stuff with strikes.

It's a continuum and people play jiu jitsu in ways that fall on all sorts of places along that continuum.

20 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35663
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



20 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3810
shen -
Caladan - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.
 

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I'm just curious when it's okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.


That particular sweep can be done no gi, so certainly has 'connection' to fighting.

I don't know where the exact line is, but I know when I see people play in a way where it would be very hard to do most of that stuff with strikes.

It's a continuum and people play jiu jitsu in ways that fall on all sorts of places along that continuum.

Idk man, it seems like a stretch to me to argue that your belt grip sweep is legit for self defense.

 

Btw if the only criterion is that it works nogi, then why do you train in the gi at all?

20 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 17998
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.


I don't recall saying they wouldn't? But I'm sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don't mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don't?


My apologies then if you weren't intentionally being rude. Sorry for being snarky.
20 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 17999
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


Did you ever stop to think maybe that was better for vale tudo rules?
Edited: 20 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3811
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.


I don't recall saying they wouldn't? But I'm sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don't mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don't?


My apologies then if you weren't intentionally being rude. Sorry for being snarky.

I started it. I forgot this was the BJJ ground and not the OG. Lol.

20 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18000
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.
20 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4420
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

19 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13737
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

19 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3812
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

19 days ago
3/15/15
Posts: 12459
Caladan - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).


I agree. I don't care if it is streetworthy if I enjoy doing it. It's a hobby and sport. Having said that, I cannot watch many BJJ fights as they look utterly ridiculous and I have no ambition to learn, practice, and apply modern techniques like 50/50 nonsense. I like by BJJ basic, and to the point. But I appreciate the creativity.
19 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13738
Caladan -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles.......even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here....do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say "all you need is sport" or "jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only" "self defense is bullshit" "go train mma if you want to how fight" and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times...why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training....I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?......I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for.....weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido...in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF!?!? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

19 days ago
2/24/06
Posts: 6978
MTH - 
forumnewb -
Red Stuff - Michael Musumeci Jr. vs João Miyao at the 2017 World Championships

I don't understand how those dudes don't tap or have major injuries

I don't either. 

I know some folks seem not to tap to toe holds in particular, but I've had my ankle "popped" by one applied by a strong blackbelt.  Quite loud and sudden, and immediately rotated past the range it had naturally stopped at moments before. 

Didn't hurt while the hold was applied or even when it "popped."  It hurt later that day though, and swelled up on the side.  It was sensitive for months thereafter whenever I had to sit over it (rolling up to combat base, etc.) or someone attempted any type of ankle attack.

My takeaway on toe holds is a bit like what everyone says about heel hooks--you don't know they're about to cause damage until they cause it.  

These guys (especially the Miyaos) seem to let their limbs get shredded rather than tap.  It's crazy.


I remember rolling with this guy at Rey Diogo's, and this guy put me in a toe hold, and it didn't hurt, so I didn't tap, and Rey looked at me and said you better tap, and he meant it, so I tapped. 

I had never trained with them at Rickson's, so I didn't know you don't get a pain warning.