David Jacobs' BJJGround This is the pinnacle of the art

28 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13739
HotSteppa -
Caladan - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).


I agree. I don't care if it is streetworthy if I enjoy doing it. It's a hobby and sport. Having said that, I cannot watch many BJJ fights as they look utterly ridiculous and I have no ambition to learn, practice, and apply modern techniques like 50/50 nonsense. I like by BJJ basic, and to the point. But I appreciate the creativity.

jiujitsu at its "basic" pressure oriented foundations are a excellent base of skill which has much defensive applicability....so not caring about SD as a priority still has benefit. AND IS FUN TOO!

 

If.i not having fun why would i do this shit for so long?

Edited: 28 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3815
Sgt. Slaphead -
Caladan -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles.......even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here....do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say "all you need is sport" or "jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only" "self defense is bullshit" "go train mma if you want to how fight" and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times...why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training....I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?......I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for.....weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido...in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF!?!? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

So is your only beef with schools who advertise self defense but don't teach self defense then?

 

Just being honest, I really think some of you old timers underestimate the new school guys. You "LMFAO" at Musumeci on the first page of this thread. That guy is a pure outlier. Multiple time mundial (gi and nogi) champion and arguably the best American competitor ever. Idk where any of you guys train, but chances are he's several levels above anyone that most of us have ever met before. He beats literally everyone. 

28 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4421
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Dude, you're overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don't compete don't get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That's just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can't.  It might drive you crazy that an "old school smash pass" style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that's life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn't all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90's with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the "average Joe" that a modern-day competitor couldn't.  That's fair, but I don't think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90's.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

28 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4422

And it needs to be said on this forum before it dies away - if you don’t fight MMA and you’re so concerned with street fights that you ignore modern innovation in your sport of choice - SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU!  At the risk of sounding insensitive, it’s borderline paranoia.  Yes, we all should be compitent at self defense but after a certain point it’s simply overkill.  Might as well have fun

28 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13740
Caladan -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Caladan -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles.......even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here....do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say "all you need is sport" or "jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only" "self defense is bullshit" "go train mma if you want to how fight" and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times...why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training....I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?......I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for.....weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido...in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF!?!? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

So is your only beef with schools who advertise self defense but don't teach self defense then?

 

Just being honest, I really think some of you old timers underestimate the new school guys. You "LMFAO" at Musumeci on the first page of this thread. That guy is a pure outlier. Multiple time mundial (gi and nogi) champion and arguably the best American competitor ever. Idk where any of you guys train, but chances are he's several levels above anyone that most of us have ever met before. He beats literally everyone. 

My beef is sport defining jiujitsu.....and yes, jiujitsu is marketed not as a sport only, but as SD. How is that ethical? I've seen a black belt teaching NONSENSE as SD....and couldnt even perform a competant osoto or ogoshi, enter against striking or some fuckery knife defensee.

 

NO SHIT he'd beat us all...in a sport match. It's a little arrogant to thik he could wreck everybodys ass i a fight....does he train to fight? I don't know anything about him, and dont care. Again...why should the average jiujitsu practitioner care what an elite level jiujitsu athlete can do and why should that define jiujitsu? Someone stated previously about how he'd choke out everyone in a fight....LOL! Well how about he go jump in the UFC with his skillset!?!?

28 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13741
Easters -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Dude, you're overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don't compete don't get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That's just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can't.  It might drive you crazy that an "old school smash pass" style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that's life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn't all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90's with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the "average Joe" that a modern-day competitor couldn't.  That's fair, but I don't think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90's.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

"Dn't get to critisize..." WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO!?!?! You think only some fuck who bumble-fucks around on a mat and calls it a "fight" and collect trinkets are the only ones who have valid opinion?!!? I paid my fucking dues, with 2 ACL injuries and a surgery, Mullitple labrum repairs, no MCL a shattered tooth up through my root requrng a root canal, blown neck disc and numerous other injuries.

 

None of that "drives me crazy" IDGAF what people do.......if all they do is monkey-fuck I know how they would react outside of their specialized arena. It is not a question of whose techniques are better....no shit an elite is going to have better.....WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF TRAINING THAT DEFINES WHAT IS BETTER FOR APPLICATION! Is a Service Rifle or F-class champion a sniper? Is a 3gun championi a specops troop?

 

The point about the industry is that has become the driving force behind jiujitsu......sport, trinkets, tounaments, training, etc......all pushing student into spending money to learn the latest and greatest, train with a champion, join the winning team.....SAME NONSENSE AS ANY OTHER MA. And as sport beomes the focus and driving force...it defines the style and training.

28 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13742
Easters -

And it needs to be said on this forum before it dies away - if you don’t fight MMA and you’re so concerned with street fights that you ignore modern innovation in your sport of choice - SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU!  At the risk of sounding insensitive, it’s borderline paranoia.  Yes, we all should be compitent at self defense but after a certain point it’s simply overkill.  Might as well have fun

So only people who "fight MMA" can be concerned about defense!?!?

 

WTF did I just state previously about "fun" and how I train?

28 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4423
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Dude, you're overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don't compete don't get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That's just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can't.  It might drive you crazy that an "old school smash pass" style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that's life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn't all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90's with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the "average Joe" that a modern-day competitor couldn't.  That's fair, but I don't think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90's.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

"Dn't get to critisize..." WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO!?!?! You think only some fuck who bumble-fucks around on a mat and calls it a "fight" and collect trinkets are the only ones who have valid opinion?!!? I paid my fucking dues, with 2 ACL injuries and a surgery, Mullitple labrum repairs, no MCL a shattered tooth up through my root requrng a root canal, blown neck disc and numerous other injuries.

 

None of that "drives me crazy" IDGAF what people do.......if all they do is monkey-fuck I know how they would react outside of their specialized arena. It is not a question of whose techniques are better....no shit an elite is going to have better.....WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF TRAINING THAT DEFINES WHAT IS BETTER FOR APPLICATION! Is a Service Rifle or F-class champion a sniper? Is a 3gun championi a specops troop?

 

The point about the industry is that has become the driving force behind jiujitsu......sport, trinkets, tounaments, training, etc......all pushing student into spending money to learn the latest and greatest, train with a champion, join the winning team.....SAME NONSENSE AS ANY OTHER MA. And as sport beomes the focus and driving force...it defines the style and training.

So since you’re a hobbyist who’s body is all jacked up you get to shit on world champions from your computer, with making no real points other than making fun of how it looks?  Ok dude.  Have fun with that.  
 

why are you so confident your Jiu Jitsu would hold up so much better in the street?  Are you some master of ground and pound or something?  Do you think these guys don’t know how to double under pass or play full guard?  You don’t have any secrets man.  I’m willing to bet it wouldn’t take too long for them to impliment some strikes into their game to make your argument more of a failure than it already is.  Or are you now gonna say it’s all about eye gouges slamming, and biting?  I’m sure you train a toooooon of that

28 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13743

You tell us to STFU and we cant have opinions on something we've been doing for a long ass time? LMAO! We earned the right to say WTF we want. And yes, much of what is seen in sport looks rediculous...but is that my point?

 

I think my jiujitsu is better within the context of fighting or SD because I train that as my foundation AND the feedback I have from people I have trained a little who have had to use those skills in a fight or defensive context.

 

LOL! you think adding some striking, doble under pass and full guard is the extent of makkinig sport jiujitsu better suited to fighitn application

Edited: 27 days ago
12/21/04
Posts: 2063
Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.
27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35666
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Exactly.

27 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13139
SD BJJ are the most critical of everyone else's Jiu Jitsu while really doing nothing with it

The "sport" BJJ guys push BJJ forward because they are the best at BJJ

The Gracies were allowed to push there style because they were the best at it for NHB, or 1 on 1 fights in the streetz

After BJJ started losing in MMA when everyone caught up, cross training, MMA specific moves took over, the only arena BJJ dominated in was BJJ/grappling comps, that's where the best BJJ players are, so guess what, they drive thr direction of BJJ, they are the stars

One of the "sport" players that this forum ripped for years was Ryan Hall, one of the poster boys for "crappy" sport inverting BJJ nonsense, but his BJJ has been great in MMA, and he isnt someone you would call athletic, he is subbing people and doing what it takes to force his style of BJJ on people

Kron the new "old school" BJJ hero lost because he had to stand and wang

SD BJJ seem to think they train all the right moves for the streetz and anything else is just nonsense, meanwhile the majority of the stuff they teach would be considered nonsense for the streetz if they used that same critical eye they use on current sport players

At least the sport players are training HARD all the time

Enjoy what you want to train, no one owns BJJ, there are many ways to practice it, it's up to the individual

The SD BJJers come off super insecure in these conversations always, probably because BJJ nerds like the Miyaos would sub them really fast lol, but then afterwards they can always say "Yeah, that tricky shit works on the mats, but let me know when you're fighting a 250 lbs meth head on the STREETZ with needles and lava around you! Then they will come to me for bear hug defense!"
27 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13140
And just to fire up Slaphead some more lol

The most efficient use of training time for SD and The Streetz is MMA focused training for the majority of people IMO, not saying its the best or whatever, because no one knows what is, if you're SD focused you would need to go gun, weapons, all ranges, awareness, environmental training, multiple attackers etc...and you can do all that and still get a bottle cracked over your head lol
27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13744

LOL at fire me up witj that.

 

You asume i havent tra8ned mma? You assume I dont train knofe or firearms? You aasume I dont train environemental factors? You assume I dont seek to address all of that and how to use them to address mulitple attackers?

 

Why do i harp on gripping, kuzushi, etc(not in a normal judo/jiuitsu or wretling manner) qnd its use off the tatami?.....because I seek to not get tied in a clinch,  ut to drive someone into, over or through things. 45mins of this mornings training was drilling with gripping, kuzushi and focusing on osoto and then sparring it a little. The sportive aspect of of gripping etc develops attributes and skills...but the combative aspects are regularly drilled and sparred.Just not today as far as tachiwaza goes. We did mix more combative(vale tudo)aspect  of guard and half guard in with some drilling a particular half reversal.

I dont advocatefor static kata-ish boolshet SD training and very much do advoate for mma training methodology in unarmed and armed training. Much of the knife/counter k ife training I done over the years involved heavy contact whereby people had their faces run into walls, 5he ground, hand&faces smashed and various injuries sustained. Why is any of this bad or nonsense applied to jiujitsu and to improve jiuitsu as a fighting style. Has  ot this been applied to the nonsense of sport jiujitsu?....so it's good to improve and evolve utter fucking nonsense, but not the defensive aspect of jiujitsu?

 

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13745
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

I agree....mostly.

 

Mostly i say because I would like to address a foundation of fight oriented traing from the beginning rather than wait and make adjustments as you state. But the importa t point you make is that skills and attri utes are developed via "mat time though sparring"

 

27 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4424
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Hmmm I’m not so sure.  On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques.  Never ignoring your base, but not pretending there’s not more to learn.  I’ve never run into an old school SD guy and heard him say he isn’t learning new stuff because he doesn’t have the time.  If you’re training BJJ you’ll find the time to learn a new concept.  The issue is they don’t WANT To learn the new stuff, and justify it because they say what they already do is better.  I mean does anybody think Sgt Slapheads problem is he doesn’t have time?  Does Shen not have the time to learn SLX?  I seriously doubt that’s the case 

27 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13141
No one is saying Slaphead has a problem because he doesn't know SLX lol, train the way you want, SD, VT, MMA, Sport, for fun, whatever

But it's always the "old school" guys who rip into modern BJJ, not the other way around, the sport guys really dont care, they train and have fun

I have been around since the earlier days, I trained it all, many martial arts, many grappling styles, I won't hate on the modern guys, those guys are the face of BJJ now, they are the ones pushing the direction of the art

There isnt one way to train BJJ, but it seems like the SD guys believe there is, like techniques stopped in the 90s lol
27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13746
liquidrob - No one is saying Slaphead has a problem because he doesn't know SLX lol, train the way you want, SD, VT, MMA, Sport, for fun, whatever

But it's always the "old school" guys who rip into modern BJJ, not the other way around, the sport guys really dont care, they train and have fun

I have been around since the earlier days, I trained it all, many martial arts, many grappling styles, I won't hate on the modern guys, those guys are the face of BJJ now, they are the ones pushing the direction of the art

There isnt one way to train BJJ, but it seems like the SD guys believe there is, like techniques stopped in the 90s lol

Exactly.my point...."pushing the directionnof the art"

 

And where do i state NOT TO LEARN SLX OR OTHER MODERN? Have I not stated i screw around most of my training? Have i not stated 5he recreational/sportive aspect sparring is where bulk of skills and attributes are developed? Disnt i state how just this mor ing I did mostly sport judo standard training for my standup portion of training and a damn half guard reversal?

it is the sport only crowd that is saying jiuitsu begins&ends in sport evolution

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13747
Easters -
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Hmmm I’m not so sure.  On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques.  Never ignoring your base, but not pretending there’s not more to learn.  I’ve never run into an old school SD guy and heard him say he isn’t learning new stuff because he doesn’t have the time.  If you’re training BJJ you’ll find the time to learn a new concept.  The issue is they don’t WANT To learn the new stuff, and justify it because they say what they already do is better.  I mean does anybody think Sgt Slapheads problem is he doesn’t have time?  Does Shen not have the time to learn SLX?  I seriously doubt that’s the case 

---"On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques."

 

where did i state to not do monkey-fuckery? I say it should NOT be the foundation and focus if one is selling it as a martial art and for defensive purposes. But 5his is what is happening today and driven by the industry and marketing.

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13748

i got cut off on last post....

 

Look at example....I taught my judoka daughter lockdown to use for a specific drill in training to prevent pass. I do dlr on occasion i  guard, done x, done deep half....is that what beginners should be doing? I do turtle, open guard, eettx. And all manner of gi chokeWhere did i say dont?s.

 

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13749

and wtf is a "SD" guy?!?! I do jiujitsu.....a grappling based fighting style!

 

LOL!

27 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13142
Sgt. Slaphead - 
liquidrob - No one is saying Slaphead has a problem because he doesn't know SLX lol, train the way you want, SD, VT, MMA, Sport, for fun, whatever

But it's always the "old school" guys who rip into modern BJJ, not the other way around, the sport guys really dont care, they train and have fun

I have been around since the earlier days, I trained it all, many martial arts, many grappling styles, I won't hate on the modern guys, those guys are the face of BJJ now, they are the ones pushing the direction of the art

There isnt one way to train BJJ, but it seems like the SD guys believe there is, like techniques stopped in the 90s lol

Exactly.my point...."pushing the directionnof the art"

 

And where do i state NOT TO LEARN SLX OR OTHER MODERN? Have I not stated i screw around most of my training? Have i not stated 5he recreational/sportive aspect sparring is where bulk of skills and attributes are developed? Disnt i state how just this mor ing I did mostly sport judo standard training for my standup portion of training and a damn half guard reversal?

it is the sport only crowd that is saying jiuitsu begins&ends in sport evolution


Yeah, these threads are always started by the sport guys LOL

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35670


Jiu jitsu is a "big tent" martial art and there are many ways to approach it.

I DO NOT CARE if people want to approach BJJ as "purely" a sport or they only think of it only as "street self-defense" or whatever else.

It gets weird when people tell other people how they "SHOULD" think of jiu jitsu. Your own expression of the art is up to YOU. It's pointless to try and "convince" someone else to view the art exactly the same way as you.

I have my opinions and I do what I like, but I don't actually care much if people want to do BJJ in a very different way that I'm not as interested in.

27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18019
Easters - 
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?


You're attempting to draw a false distinction between new and old guys. I corrected you.

And seriously? The IBJJF's rule on reaping is as ridiculous as it comes. They treat it like someone just pulled out a knife of the mat.

No slamming is another rule that makes a difference. Not that I necessarily think slamming should be allowed in BJJ tournaments, but you should still always act like it is. I see guys locking up triangles and hanging on to armbars while they're up in the air like they're immune to being slammed, when in reality, the only thing protecting them is the ruleset. Etc.
27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18020
Caladan - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
Caladan -
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Serious question...what if they don't care? I mean seriously, I'm a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I'm not worried about myself in a street situation because I've trained martial arts for almost a decade but let's pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think...I'm mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don't ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with "fighting" I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles.......even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here....do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say "all you need is sport" or "jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only" "self defense is bullshit" "go train mma if you want to how fight" and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times...why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training....I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?......I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for.....weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido...in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF!?!? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

So is your only beef with schools who advertise self defense but don't teach self defense then?

 

Just being honest, I really think some of you old timers underestimate the new school guys. You "LMFAO" at Musumeci on the first page of this thread. That guy is a pure outlier. Multiple time mundial (gi and nogi) champion and arguably the best American competitor ever. Idk where any of you guys train, but chances are he's several levels above anyone that most of us have ever met before. He beats literally everyone. 


You fight how you train. And if the new school guys are constantly flopping to their backs and inverting and looking for berimbolos, they're not magically going to start doing something different when it's a real fight.

I know this as a former guard player of many, many years. And one day I realized how often I was conceding top position because I was so comfortable on my back. Regardless of what I could do from my back, that mentality is just bad jiu jitsu. And it was a habit that's been very difficult to break because I had done it for so long. And it was a habit that got worse whenever I started to get tired or fatigued.

I urge anyone, sport or fighting oriented, to put the gloves on and roll a few times with strikes. That will show the holes in someone's BJJ faster than any debate or conversation.