Easters -Sgt. Slaphead -Easters -Soul Gravy -Easters -
I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:
you can learn from two groups of people. The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it. Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr. The top notch of the 90s.
or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day. Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton. These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse. They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments. They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one. They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn. I know who I’d rather learn from
Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.
The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.
The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.
Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.
and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting? Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?
If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.
Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.
Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.
LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!
Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?
Dude, you're overthinking this way too much. People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want. BUT the people who don't compete don't get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard. That's just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting. Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA? If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments? The tough truth is that they can't. It might drive you crazy that an "old school smash pass" style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that's life. And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago. People didn't all of the sudden forget what pressure is. People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros. Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90's with better top game than any of them. PLEASE.
Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the "average Joe" that a modern-day competitor couldn't. That's fair, but I don't think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school. Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence. Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.
And the whole industry thing is a bit weird. Is football worse off because the NFL exists? I think most would say the opposite. Structured competition promotes innovation. You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition. Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90's. Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc. Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?
You don't have any idea who competes, where they compete, how often they train or where they train. YOU are the one who has no place deciding who gets to criticize whom.
"Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?"
Just like with boxing and wrestling, some BJJ fighters had better success than others. There have been more than a few highly decorated wrestlers who have performed poorly in MMA. This doesn't invalidate wrestling.
I would also argue that more old school guys fought MMA than the new school guys. And showing up to test those skills in such an arena is worth quite a bit, win or lose.
"If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?"
Who says they don't? Different do better under different rulesets.
"Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence."
Of course it does. No one has argued otherwise. But a competitor who trains for a no contact TKD match is going to get steamrolled by someone who trains for full contact. Both are competitors, but the ruleset, and therefore the training, make the difference.
"You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition."
Agreed that's it's become more complex, but I would argue unnecessarily so.