David Jacobs' BJJGround This is the pinnacle of the art

27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18021
Easters - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They’re not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They’re learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don’t have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I’d rather learn from 


Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce's appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods.....this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do....what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student's life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?.....the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry....look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it's a lif....INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen.....he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I'd pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do!?!?!?

 

 

Dude, you're overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don't compete don't get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That's just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can't.  It might drive you crazy that an "old school smash pass" style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that's life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn't all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90's with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the "average Joe" that a modern-day competitor couldn't.  That's fair, but I don't think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90's.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  


You don't have any idea who competes, where they compete, how often they train or where they train. YOU are the one who has no place deciding who gets to criticize whom.

"Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?"

Just like with boxing and wrestling, some BJJ fighters had better success than others. There have been more than a few highly decorated wrestlers who have performed poorly in MMA. This doesn't invalidate wrestling.

I would also argue that more old school guys fought MMA than the new school guys. And showing up to test those skills in such an arena is worth quite a bit, win or lose.

"If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don't all those guys' students go and dominate some tournaments?"

Who says they don't? Different do better under different rulesets.


"Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence."

Of course it does. No one has argued otherwise. But a competitor who trains for a no contact TKD match is going to get steamrolled by someone who trains for full contact. Both are competitors, but the ruleset, and therefore the training, make the difference.

"You can disagree but the "guard" has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition."

Agreed that's it's become more complex, but I would argue unnecessarily so.
27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18022
liquidrob - SD BJJ are the most critical of everyone else's Jiu Jitsu while really doing nothing with it

The "sport" BJJ guys push BJJ forward because they are the best at BJJ

The Gracies were allowed to push there style because they were the best at it for NHB, or 1 on 1 fights in the streetz

After BJJ started losing in MMA when everyone caught up, cross training, MMA specific moves took over, the only arena BJJ dominated in was BJJ/grappling comps, that's where the best BJJ players are, so guess what, they drive thr direction of BJJ, they are the stars

One of the "sport" players that this forum ripped for years was Ryan Hall, one of the poster boys for "crappy" sport inverting BJJ nonsense, but his BJJ has been great in MMA, and he isnt someone you would call athletic, he is subbing people and doing what it takes to force his style of BJJ on people

Kron the new "old school" BJJ hero lost because he had to stand and wang

SD BJJ seem to think they train all the right moves for the streetz and anything else is just nonsense, meanwhile the majority of the stuff they teach would be considered nonsense for the streetz if they used that same critical eye they use on current sport players

At least the sport players are training HARD all the time

Enjoy what you want to train, no one owns BJJ, there are many ways to practice it, it's up to the individual

The SD BJJers come off super insecure in these conversations always, probably because BJJ nerds like the Miyaos would sub them really fast lol, but then afterwards they can always say "Yeah, that tricky shit works on the mats, but let me know when you're fighting a 250 lbs meth head on the STREETZ with needles and lava around you! Then they will come to me for bear hug defense!"

"SD BJJ" is really just regular BJJ. "Sport BJJ" is an offshoot meant purely for BJJ competitions without regard to strikes.

Ryan Hall is an interesting case, but I'm not sure he's a good argument that sport BJJ is capable of holding its own in MMA.

Kron is a bad example because he chose to stand and wang. It's not that his BJJ failed him, sport or otherwise, it's that he never tried to use it at all.

And bear hug defense is not indicative of "SD" BJJ. Not at all.
27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18023
Easters - 
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Hmmm I’m not so sure.  On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques.  Never ignoring your base, but not pretending there’s not more to learn.  I’ve never run into an old school SD guy and heard him say he isn’t learning new stuff because he doesn’t have the time.  If you’re training BJJ you’ll find the time to learn a new concept.  The issue is they don’t WANT To learn the new stuff, and justify it because they say what they already do is better.  I mean does anybody think Sgt Slapheads problem is he doesn’t have time?  Does Shen not have the time to learn SLX?  I seriously doubt that’s the case 


You're right, it's not just a matter of time. It's a matter of something like SLX being a niche game that's shines under a specific ruleset. There are better things to spend time and energy training for fighting. Train one sweep from there that you can hit reliably and then go drill double legs. Don't waste time building a game around it.
27 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18024
liquidrob - No one is saying Slaphead has a problem because he doesn't know SLX lol, train the way you want, SD, VT, MMA, Sport, for fun, whatever

But it's always the "old school" guys who rip into modern BJJ, not the other way around, the sport guys really dont care, they train and have fun

I have been around since the earlier days, I trained it all, many martial arts, many grappling styles, I won't hate on the modern guys, those guys are the face of BJJ now, they are the ones pushing the direction of the art

There isnt one way to train BJJ, but it seems like the SD guys believe there is, like techniques stopped in the 90s lol

Maybe the art doesn't need to be pushed?
27 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4425
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Hmmm I’m not so sure.  On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques.  Never ignoring your base, but not pretending there’s not more to learn.  I’ve never run into an old school SD guy and heard him say he isn’t learning new stuff because he doesn’t have the time.  If you’re training BJJ you’ll find the time to learn a new concept.  The issue is they don’t WANT To learn the new stuff, and justify it because they say what they already do is better.  I mean does anybody think Sgt Slapheads problem is he doesn’t have time?  Does Shen not have the time to learn SLX?  I seriously doubt that’s the case 


You're right, it's not just a matter of time. It's a matter of something like SLX being a niche game that's shines under a specific ruleset. There are better things to spend time and energy training for fighting. Train one sweep from there that you can hit reliably and then go drill double legs. Don't waste time building a game around it.

Ok so now we’re telling the hobbyist guys who can’t do the techniques of a competitor to do double legs, one of the most athleticism-dependent techniques out there.  Ok, makes sense

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13750
Easters -
Soul Gravy -
Easters - 
Aaron Lapointe - Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.

Hmmm I’m not so sure.  On the path to black belt you actually have a LOT of time on the mats.  There’s no reason you can’t build a base on solid fundamentals and self defense and evolve to explore and embrace newer techniques.  Never ignoring your base, but not pretending there’s not more to learn.  I’ve never run into an old school SD guy and heard him say he isn’t learning new stuff because he doesn’t have the time.  If you’re training BJJ you’ll find the time to learn a new concept.  The issue is they don’t WANT To learn the new stuff, and justify it because they say what they already do is better.  I mean does anybody think Sgt Slapheads problem is he doesn’t have time?  Does Shen not have the time to learn SLX?  I seriously doubt that’s the case 


You're right, it's not just a matter of time. It's a matter of something like SLX being a niche game that's shines under a specific ruleset. There are better things to spend time and energy training for fighting. Train one sweep from there that you can hit reliably and then go drill double legs. Don't waste time building a game around it.

Ok so now we’re telling the hobbyist guys who can’t do the techniques of a competitor to do double legs, one of the most athleticism-dependent techniques out there.  Ok, makes sense

so you saying dont learn double?!?!.....OH BRUTHA

26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13751
so people should be do all manner of monkey-fuckery, but not a double leg....wow!

no wonder jiujitsu isgetting retarded if people think a double is to hard for a hobbiest to develop. Sure it is often neglected, but that is the instructors fault. If a double it to hard to learn then there is no hope to learn any takedowns or throws. So I guess the comment I got on this forum in the past of jiujitsu is a ground sport only must be true. Then of course my stance of fighting and defensive training is rediculous.

YOU WIN!
26 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4426
Sgt. Slaphead - so people should be do all manner of monkey-fuckery, but not a double leg....wow!

no wonder jiujitsu isgetting retarded if people think a double is to hard for a hobbiest to develop. Sure it is often neglected, but that is the instructors fault. If a double it to hard to learn then there is no hope to learn any takedowns or throws. So I guess the comment I got on this forum in the past of jiujitsu is a ground sport only must be true. Then of course my stance of fighting and defensive training is rediculous.

YOU WIN!

Chill man.  If you read the context the guy I was replying to said to learn a double leg instead of single leg x

26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13752

and yoi should learn a double more than slx!!

26 days ago
8/28/10
Posts: 12785

**inverts into thread, looks around, butt scoots out

26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13753

it's only ghey if there is eye contact

26 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13143
https://images.app.goo.gl/rGARF9p9ZkdMEKxy8
26 days ago
2/27/08
Posts: 1746
Edited: 26 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13145
Thanks Red!

#over40inverter
26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35677
Caladan -
shen -
Caladan - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.
 

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I'm just curious when it's okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.


That particular sweep can be done no gi, so certainly has 'connection' to fighting.

I don't know where the exact line is, but I know when I see people play in a way where it would be very hard to do most of that stuff with strikes.

It's a continuum and people play jiu jitsu in ways that fall on all sorts of places along that continuum.

Idk man, it seems like a stretch to me to argue that your belt grip sweep is legit for self defense.

 

Btw if the only criterion is that it works nogi, then why do you train in the gi at all?

The no gi version you cup the far lat.

I train gi & Nogi because I enjoy both and both contribute skills & knowledge towards self defense.

25 days ago
5/18/06
Posts: 6892

My disappointment with where BJJ has gone takes nothing away from the great competitors these days.  But for me, BJJ was the art that cut through all the BS that ruled the martial arts world up until the 1990s.  Now, it defines that same BS, where competitors train to a very limited ruleset and then all the hobbyists follow the elite without ever considering why.  It's become the reddit of martial arts, navel gazing and self referential. 

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13754

that sums it up

25 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 2037
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
Soul Gravy -
mideastgrappler - 
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
Lazarus -
mideastgrappler - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand


And it still wouldn't work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they're under the guise that strikes aren't allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing.....you tell them their head movement won't work witht heir slipping and combinations....that's true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking....sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do.....what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?.....is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo'ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic "Invisible" self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don't actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn't demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 


No one said they don't have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they've gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they've most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven't abandoned the core tenets of the art.

...and they'd both choke you with ease under any ruleset.


I don't recall saying they wouldn't? But I'm sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don't mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don't?


My apologies then if you weren't intentionally being rude. Sorry for being snarky.

He was.

25 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 2038

Lol at this thread

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35680
The Mat Pimp - 

My disappointment with where BJJ has gone takes nothing away from the great competitors these days.  But for me, BJJ was the art that cut through all the BS that ruled the martial arts world up until the 1990s.  Now, it defines that same BS, where competitors train to a very limited ruleset and then all the hobbyists follow the elite without ever considering why.  It's become the reddit of martial arts, navel gazing and self referential. 


Exactly.

And this pattern happens --to a greater or lesser extent-- with ALL combat sports; they evolve over time to become somewhat less "realistic".

--Doesn't mean they don't have great value, doesn't mean the people who do them well aren't very skilled individuaks.

But we should recognize that the "sportification" of martial arts, DOES tend to harm the core value of the art as it pertains to use in the real world.

One of my Brown Belt BJJ students is a 5th dan in Judo and a local Judo Sensei for decades. Competed for years.Trained in Japan, etc. a true "Judoka".

Even he says things like "I can't stand what Judo has become."

He has seen Judo change a lot over his lifetime, just as we see BJJ change over ours.

He would be the first to praise the PHENOMENAL level of Judo athletes today, yet... at the same time the first to talk about how absurd some of the rules have become.

Anyone who does a martial art for at least a couple decades usually has more complicated opinions and feelings on their art than "sport guys" vs "self-defense guys".
25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 2710

To say the same thing others have said in my own words, when I started in BJJ, there was a lot of overlap between the techniques and strategies used in BJJ matches and Vale Tudo fights. This has changed.

I don’t doubt that today’s techniques are more effective than yesterday’s in BJJ vs. BJJ. I also much prefer watching Lachlan Giles and Gordon Ryan do their thing to watching BJJ matches from the turn of the century. Still, I don’t think anyone will disagree that BJJ and MMA have come to resemble each other less and less. And that has left some people disappointed. 

25 days ago
4/30/06
Posts: 389

we need to play the ball and not the man. 

by that I mean it's the rules which are stuffed, not the athletes. the very fact that at every comp from the local ones in my beachside suburb in Sydney to the Worlds in LA .. from white belt to black, we see two athletes come running in to the centre and sit on their butts and then either play footsies or move around like a dog with worms, isn't exactly what I signed up for over 20 years ago. 

in my humble opinion, a simple rule change - the second fighter to have their arse or back on the mat gets awarded two points.

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13755

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=565510830861475&_rdr

 

and 5hen i see this >:(

Edited: 25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35687
^ Wow...

FINALLY, a way for "traditional Jujitsu" practitioners to actually win at a BJJ tourney!

Danzan Ryu and others have been doing this JJ kata competition stuff for decades and honestly look a lot sharper doing it. These BJJ kata noobs don't even know about synchronizing with your partner when you fix your gi! Shame.

But, hopefully this is just the beginning and we can soon look forward to a "musical BJJ kata division", too.
25 days ago
9/9/02
Posts: 13147
LOL

Should have had the Miyaos butt scoot in and sub all those guys and then invert out the door