David Jacobs' BJJGround This is the pinnacle of the art

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13756

do they ev3n kiai!?!?!?

 

23 days ago
8/28/10
Posts: 12789
Sgt. Slaphead -

do they ev3n kiai!?!?!?

 

Oh they kiaid with every throw alright, I'm sure of it

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13757

no that was gas...cause even they knew that sucked ass

 

23 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3821
The Mat Pimp -

My disappointment with where BJJ has gone takes nothing away from the great competitors these days.  But for me, BJJ was the art that cut through all the BS that ruled the martial arts world up until the 1990s.  Now, it defines that same BS, where competitors train to a very limited ruleset and then all the hobbyists follow the elite without ever considering why.  It's become the reddit of martial arts, navel gazing and self referential. 

People aren't going to like this post and I'm open to being wrong but the BS side of things from my perspective is on the self defense side.

 

There is a lot of BJJ in my town and every school competes whether it be BJJ or grappling or MMA...except the "self defense" school. They don't hold or participate in open mats and never compete at any level in anything. 

 

"Sport" guys continue to move towards MMA eventually, albeit at a lower rate than historical. Are the "self defense" guys doing the same? Guys like Rener preach the superiority of his own jiu jitsu everyday as he hasn't competed in a decade. Keenan was on his own podcast talking about how he's actively skeptical of OG self defense hero Henry Akins because he wouldnt roll with high level guys in the times he's met him.

 

BJJ cut through the BS because guys never hid behind their belts and as a whole put it on the line. From my anecdotal perspective, I see one group putting it on the line consistently and the other group not as much.

 

Where am I wrong?

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13758

Pssh....didnt you see the vid link i posted?!?!

 

legit

23 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 690
shen -
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



Dude. You put a miyao or a muscemi against any mma guy their size in shoes pants and a jacket, strong likelihood mma guy gets knee torn in half before anything else happens. 

What is a realistic situation anyway? 

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13759

to me, bjj is a martial art, it doesnt translate as well to mma nowadays. To give example....Relson's VT. He stated many times it wasnt for mma, and if you understood the techniques and me5hods it would be apparent. But what was the training method?....it was resistance and sparring. Some of the techniques/me5hods would be fine in mma, but overall less so.

Even in early nhb era, you could see things that made the SD/VT methods less efficient....a good example is forcing the clinch.  Defensively speaking, when someone is faced with a violent attack....forward pressure tends to be sudden and intense. So his forearm crash&clinch, etc works great in that context...less so in a patiet stakijg standoff whith a striker tryijg to avoid being clinched and taken down. If I teach the crash, ive changed to different methods than what i learned from him, but the timing and tactics are still very much same. When I did spar mma, i us3d more mma strwtegy and tactics. Ground wise.....rules dictate, so some of the stuff arnt really applicable.

 

But like I stated, look t what "self xefense guys" are doing....does it involve resistance and sparring? If not...what is it. If its that less rigid type of goshin-jitsu posted above with its archaic techniques, I can understand 5he hate. Believe it or not, I actually dislike "SELF DEFENSE" training. But I like training skills and techniques that is broadly applicable. My osoto, etc can be done with lapel and sleeve or from clinch. My default pass actually isnt very technical and isnt good to teach white belts imo, but is good with or without gi....but I will do others mostly. I choke with or without gi, and emphasize some very specific thi gs I engrained from VT.

My strategy&tactics for recreation are my engrained VT ones.....for some of my playing, and then I switch to more of a play mode which actually has me in bad position forcing me to dig my way out or weather the storm.In this way I get to practice my defaults and then get valuable training in worst case scenario  ecause i dont train much nowadays, but sometimes I wanna be alpha and shift gears.

 

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35691
HillboFrateTrane - 
shen -
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



Dude. You put a miyao or a muscemi against any mma guy their size in shoes pants and a jacket, strong likelihood mma guy gets knee torn in half before anything else happens. 

What is a realistic situation anyway? 


It's possible, it all depends on who the MMA guy is.

I have no idea if the Miyaos or Muscemi have ever been punched or thrown a punch in their lives. But, if not, my money is on the MMA guy.

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13760
shen -
HillboFrateTrane - 
shen -
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



Dude. You put a miyao or a muscemi against any mma guy their size in shoes pants and a jacket, strong likelihood mma guy gets knee torn in half before anything else happens. 

What is a realistic situation anyway? 


It's possible, it all depends on who the MMA guy is.

I have no idea if the Miyaos or Muscemi have ever been punched or thrown a punch in their lives. But, if not, my money is on the MMA guy.

indeed

 

MMA 9s the best vehicle for overall fighting skill...it is what jkd should/could be as far as unarmed fighting.

BJJ is a grappling focused martial art....certai ly useful for fighting and defensive purposes, but depends of trsining method. Training should involve developing fundamental skills to deal with standup and standoff....if it doesnt, then it becomes less and less useful. Sport BJJ is specialized and narrowly applicable, if it is the default, it sucks ass almost as bad as tippy-tap kayrotee.

 

23 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 18031
Caladan - 
The Mat Pimp -

My disappointment with where BJJ has gone takes nothing away from the great competitors these days.  But for me, BJJ was the art that cut through all the BS that ruled the martial arts world up until the 1990s.  Now, it defines that same BS, where competitors train to a very limited ruleset and then all the hobbyists follow the elite without ever considering why.  It's become the reddit of martial arts, navel gazing and self referential. 

People aren't going to like this post and I'm open to being wrong but the BS side of things from my perspective is on the self defense side.

 

There is a lot of BJJ in my town and every school competes whether it be BJJ or grappling or MMA...except the "self defense" school. They don't hold or participate in open mats and never compete at any level in anything. 

 

"Sport" guys continue to move towards MMA eventually, albeit at a lower rate than historical. Are the "self defense" guys doing the same? Guys like Rener preach the superiority of his own jiu jitsu everyday as he hasn't competed in a decade. Keenan was on his own podcast talking about how he's actively skeptical of OG self defense hero Henry Akins because he wouldnt roll with high level guys in the times he's met him.

 

BJJ cut through the BS because guys never hid behind their belts and as a whole put it on the line. From my anecdotal perspective, I see one group putting it on the line consistently and the other group not as much.

 

Where am I wrong?


I've never seen a stand-alone self-defense BJJ school.

I have seen self-defense classes at BJJ schools, which unfortunately tend toward silly stuff like bear hug and standing choke defenses.

To me, self-defense BJJ is pretty much no gi MMA/vale tudo. It's BJJ that's focused on maintaining or regaining a dominant position, inflicting lots of REAL damage (elbows from side control, not eye pokes or groin strikes), and emphasizing solid techniques that can consistently be performed against opponents of reasonable size and skill. It's not learning twenty different berimbolo entries or rolling around inverted trying to snatch up a heel hook. I'd rather see a a good double leg to side control and dropping elbows until the person is out or gives up his back than a ten minute battle with both guys in 50/50--one is BJJ used for fighting and the other is BJJ used for competing.

And a lot of it isn't even necessarily the techniques used, but attitude behind them. I'm quite certain Palhares performing a berimbolo would be a sight to behold. Marcelo is known for his bottom game, but he's incredibly aggressive at fighting for top position from there. Etc.
23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13762
Soul Gravy -
Caladan - 
The Mat Pimp -

My disappointment with where BJJ has gone takes nothing away from the great competitors these days.  But for me, BJJ was the art that cut through all the BS that ruled the martial arts world up until the 1990s.  Now, it defines that same BS, where competitors train to a very limited ruleset and then all the hobbyists follow the elite without ever considering why.  It's become the reddit of martial arts, navel gazing and self referential. 

People aren't going to like this post and I'm open to being wrong but the BS side of things from my perspective is on the self defense side.

 

There is a lot of BJJ in my town and every school competes whether it be BJJ or grappling or MMA...except the "self defense" school. They don't hold or participate in open mats and never compete at any level in anything. 

 

"Sport" guys continue to move towards MMA eventually, albeit at a lower rate than historical. Are the "self defense" guys doing the same? Guys like Rener preach the superiority of his own jiu jitsu everyday as he hasn't competed in a decade. Keenan was on his own podcast talking about how he's actively skeptical of OG self defense hero Henry Akins because he wouldnt roll with high level guys in the times he's met him.

 

BJJ cut through the BS because guys never hid behind their belts and as a whole put it on the line. From my anecdotal perspective, I see one group putting it on the line consistently and the other group not as much.

 

Where am I wrong?


I've never seen a stand-alone self-defense BJJ school.

I have seen self-defense classes at BJJ schools, which unfortunately tend toward silly stuff like bear hug and standing choke defenses.

To me, self-defense BJJ is pretty much no gi MMA/vale tudo. It's BJJ that's focused on maintaining or regaining a dominant position, inflicting lots of REAL damage (elbows from side control, not eye pokes or groin strikes), and emphasizing solid techniques that can consistently be performed against opponents of reasonable size and skill. It's not learning twenty different berimbolo entries or rolling around inverted trying to snatch up a heel hook. I'd rather see a a good double leg to side control and dropping elbows until the person is out or gives up his back than a ten minute battle with both guys in 50/50--one is BJJ used for fighting and the other is BJJ used for competing.

And a lot of it isn't even necessarily the techniques used, but attitude behind them. I'm quite certain Palhares performing a berimbolo would be a sight to behold. Marcelo is known for his bottom game, but he's incredibly aggressive at fighting for top position from there. Etc.

exactly. Strategy&tactics and positional and techniquepriorities differ from sport, and even beteewn SD and VT

 

22 days ago
4/26/13
Posts: 4427
shen -
HillboFrateTrane - 
shen -
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



Dude. You put a miyao or a muscemi against any mma guy their size in shoes pants and a jacket, strong likelihood mma guy gets knee torn in half before anything else happens. 

What is a realistic situation anyway? 


It's possible, it all depends on who the MMA guy is.

I have no idea if the Miyaos or Muscemi have ever been punched or thrown a punch in their lives. But, if not, my money is on the MMA guy.

I’m sure all those Gracie academy self defense black belts would do muuuuch better than the Miyaos (sarcasm).

 

Guys, there are no secrets anymore.  People who never put their skill set on public display don’t get credit for winning imaginary fight situations.

 

i think I’ve asked this question on this forum before, can anybody post a video of a sport BJJ black belt getting beat up in the street?  With how much of a rampant problem you all make it seem to be surely there’s something on YouTube.

22 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13763
Easters -
shen -
HillboFrateTrane - 
shen -
Easters - 
shen -
Easters - 
Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better


At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?


I didn't say it was 'so good for fighting', I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.



Dude. You put a miyao or a muscemi against any mma guy their size in shoes pants and a jacket, strong likelihood mma guy gets knee torn in half before anything else happens. 

What is a realistic situation anyway? 


It's possible, it all depends on who the MMA guy is.

I have no idea if the Miyaos or Muscemi have ever been punched or thrown a punch in their lives. But, if not, my money is on the MMA guy.

I’m sure all those Gracie academy self defense black belts would do muuuuch better than the Miyaos (sarcasm).

 

Guys, there are no secrets anymore.  People who never put their skill set on public display don’t get credit for winning imaginary fight situations.

 

i think I’ve asked this question on this forum before, can anybody post a video of a sport BJJ black belt getting beat up in the street?  With how much of a rampant problem you all make it seem to be surely there’s something on YouTube.

can you find a "self defense black belt" getting beatup in the street?....cause Instill dont know wtf that is

 

18 days ago
5/8/11
Posts: 5370

Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?  ibjjf rules seems to think so and rewards guard pulling and disqualifies for slams.  But in a street fight, there are no rules and sitting in front of a guy that wants to stomp your life out that weighs 50lbs more than you would be insane.  Holding on to a triangle when someone is picking you up over the concrete would be fatal.  No one has ever asked me to step outside and fight ibjjf rules.  I’ve never heard anyone say…I’m going to kick your ass…according to the NAGA rule book.  For me, bjj is self defense.  Sport/competition bjj as it looks, is tai chi with a partner.

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13766
fnunderful -

Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?  ibjjf rules seems to think so and rewards guard pulling and disqualifies for slams.  But in a street fight, there are no rules and sitting in front of a guy that wants to stomp your life out that weighs 50lbs more than you would be insane.  Holding on to a triangle when someone is picking you up over the concrete would be fatal.  No one has ever asked me to step outside and fight ibjjf rules.  I’ve never heard anyone say…I’m going to kick your ass…according to the NAGA rule book.  For me, bjj is self defense.  Sport/competition bjj as it looks, is tai chi with a partner.

--"Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?"

To me...no

 

I dont consider tippy-tappy kayrottee karate either.

 

Others say jiujitsu is different things to different people. I ask, what is the history, culture and objective of jiujitsu technique&training?

18 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 748

How many “old school” guys here are 20 year purple belts? 

18 days ago
2/27/08
Posts: 1752
"Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?"



Nope. It's American jiu jitsu.
18 days ago
5/8/11
Posts: 5371
HillboFrateTrane -

How many “old school” guys here are 20 year purple belts? 

10 year blue....

18 days ago
5/8/11
Posts: 5372
Red Stuff - "Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?"



Nope. It's American jiu jitsu.

considering american football, this makes perfect sense....

17 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 759
fnunderful -
Red Stuff - "Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?"



Nope. It's American jiu jitsu.

considering american football, this makes perfect sense....

Dude. Don’t go there. No other sport has anywhere near the violent collisions of the NFL. 80% of legal NFL tackles would be an immediate ejection in modern rugby. 

 

Pads make the sport more dangerous just like boxing gloves. 

17 days ago
5/8/11
Posts: 5376
HillboFrateTrane -
fnunderful -
Red Stuff - "Is bjj still bjj without a base in self-defense?"



Nope. It's American jiu jitsu.

considering american football, this makes perfect sense....

Dude. Don’t go there. No other sport has anywhere near the violent collisions of the NFL. 80% of legal NFL tackles would be an immediate ejection in modern rugby. 

 

Pads make the sport more dangerous just like boxing gloves. 

it is the most boring 4 hours on television, but that is a topic for another thread in another forum...i stand by my analogy american jiu jitsu is to jiu jitsu as american football is to real football...not recognizable as the original!