David Jacobs' BJJGround What (When) is "Old School" BJJ?

17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39541

I think this thread shows that most people's definition of "old school" is very dependent on when THEY started BJJ.

I was at a Carlson, Jr. seminar at my teacher's school a couple years back. I don't remember how it happened, but he saw me do something I happened to do to my partner that kinda jogged his memory.

He quickly showed me a simple 1/2 guard pass, that In my 24 years of BJJ, I had never seen. That's not shocking, but what was kinda surprising to me was when he said, "That used to be THE most popular half Guard Pass. That's the one everyone used to use. No ones uses it anymore."

I said, "Why not?"

He said, "I don't know" Then he moved on.

Most of us practitioners don't really have much perspective on BJJ. I'm quite curious about the stuff that has come and gone, had it's heyday, that we don't even know about.


[I know someone will ask so, the 1/2 guard pass is: Your RIGHT leg is trapped in your opponent's Half Guard. / Attack your opponent's neck with an amassa pao(?)/ Thrusting choke so that your LEFT hand is punching the ground by the LEFT side of you opponent's neck. / Right hand grabs a fistful of belt over your opponent's LEFT hip. / With all your weight on your fists, POP UP TO A SQUAT POSITION. / Do a basic knee Cut to Pass. ]
16 days ago
3/20/14
Posts: 963

If Royce Gracie UFC 1 is the reason you got in to jiu-jitsu & you're still training, you are doing old school.

16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 19271
mata_leaos - I don't want to split hairs but I really think there is a mid-school era.

To me old school is early everything up until and possibly including the early 00's. Mid-school is the early-mid 00's (think Marcelo Garcia hitting the scene) and from 2003-2009 there was a period of what I like to call "new school basics." New school basics would be positions like arm drags to the back, seatbelt grips, deep half guard, x-guard, spider guard, butterfly guard, darce/brabo chokes, high elbow guillotine, leg-assist anaconda chokes, body triangle, kimura trap, crucifix, leg drag, leg weave, 50/50 guard. So to me those are mid-school aka new school basics.

And then from 2009 to now we get truly see "modern jiu-jitsu" with the outside Delariva and inside Delariva, outside and inside berimbolo, crab ride, the huge heel hook renaissance, float passing, straitjacket system, K-guard, worm guard and all the crazy lapel guard variations, and anything that's going on right now.

I see a lot of people using old-school to talk about anything prior to 2000 then new-school for everything after that (but usually stuff from the past 10 years) and I think there's a lot of 2000's stuff that can get tossed into either bin depending on who you talk to.

Good post.  That division is certainly there.  Mid-School Jiu Jitsu represent!

16 days ago
3/28/02
Posts: 9384
deepu -
mata_leaos - I don't want to split hairs but I really think there is a mid-school era.

To me old school is early everything up until and possibly including the early 00's. Mid-school is the early-mid 00's (think Marcelo Garcia hitting the scene) and from 2003-2009 there was a period of what I like to call "new school basics." New school basics would be positions like arm drags to the back, seatbelt grips, deep half guard, x-guard, spider guard, butterfly guard, darce/brabo chokes, high elbow guillotine, leg-assist anaconda chokes, body triangle, kimura trap, crucifix, leg drag, leg weave, 50/50 guard. So to me those are mid-school aka new school basics.

And then from 2009 to now we get truly see "modern jiu-jitsu" with the outside Delariva and inside Delariva, outside and inside berimbolo, crab ride, the huge heel hook renaissance, float passing, straitjacket system, K-guard, worm guard and all the crazy lapel guard variations, and anything that's going on right now.

I see a lot of people using old-school to talk about anything prior to 2000 then new-school for everything after that (but usually stuff from the past 10 years) and I think there's a lot of 2000's stuff that can get tossed into either bin depending on who you talk to.

Good post.  That division is certainly there.  Mid-School Jiu Jitsu represent!

good insight.

though I think inside De la Riva was pretty popular in Mid School

16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 684
EazyG - 
deepu -
mata_leaos - I don't want to split hairs but I really think there is a mid-school era.

To me old school is early everything up until and possibly including the early 00's. Mid-school is the early-mid 00's (think Marcelo Garcia hitting the scene) and from 2003-2009 there was a period of what I like to call "new school basics." New school basics would be positions like arm drags to the back, seatbelt grips, deep half guard, x-guard, spider guard, butterfly guard, darce/brabo chokes, high elbow guillotine, leg-assist anaconda chokes, body triangle, kimura trap, crucifix, leg drag, leg weave, 50/50 guard. So to me those are mid-school aka new school basics.

And then from 2009 to now we get truly see "modern jiu-jitsu" with the outside Delariva and inside Delariva, outside and inside berimbolo, crab ride, the huge heel hook renaissance, float passing, straitjacket system, K-guard, worm guard and all the crazy lapel guard variations, and anything that's going on right now.

I see a lot of people using old-school to talk about anything prior to 2000 then new-school for everything after that (but usually stuff from the past 10 years) and I think there's a lot of 2000's stuff that can get tossed into either bin depending on who you talk to.

Good post.  That division is certainly there.  Mid-School Jiu Jitsu represent!

good insight.

though I think inside De la Riva was pretty popular in Mid School


I wouldn't argue with that at all.
16 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 20589
mata_leaos - I don't want to split hairs but I really think there is a mid-school era.

To me old school is early everything up until and possibly including the early 00's. Mid-school is the early-mid 00's (think Marcelo Garcia hitting the scene) and from 2003-2009 there was a period of what I like to call "new school basics." New school basics would be positions like arm drags to the back, seatbelt grips, deep half guard, x-guard, spider guard, butterfly guard, darce/brabo chokes, high elbow guillotine, leg-assist anaconda chokes, body triangle, kimura trap, crucifix, leg drag, leg weave, 50/50 guard. So to me those are mid-school aka new school basics.

And then from 2009 to now we get truly see "modern jiu-jitsu" with the outside Delariva and inside Delariva, outside and inside berimbolo, crab ride, the huge heel hook renaissance, float passing, straitjacket system, K-guard, worm guard and all the crazy lapel guard variations, and anything that's going on right now.

I see a lot of people using old-school to talk about anything prior to 2000 then new-school for everything after that (but usually stuff from the past 10 years) and I think there's a lot of 2000's stuff that can get tossed into either bin depending on who you talk to.

I would agree with this.

It's also interesting to note that Sperry showed the De La Riva guard on his instructional as a vale tudo guard way back in the day.
Edited: 16 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 9275

Multiple time World Champion Robson Moura talking about how jiu-jitsu has changed over the years.(and this video was posted 7 years ago) 

16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 685
Soul Gravy - 
mata_leaos - I don't want to split hairs but I really think there is a mid-school era.

To me old school is early everything up until and possibly including the early 00's. Mid-school is the early-mid 00's (think Marcelo Garcia hitting the scene) and from 2003-2009 there was a period of what I like to call "new school basics." New school basics would be positions like arm drags to the back, seatbelt grips, deep half guard, x-guard, spider guard, butterfly guard, darce/brabo chokes, high elbow guillotine, leg-assist anaconda chokes, body triangle, kimura trap, crucifix, leg drag, leg weave, 50/50 guard. So to me those are mid-school aka new school basics.

And then from 2009 to now we get truly see "modern jiu-jitsu" with the outside Delariva and inside Delariva, outside and inside berimbolo, crab ride, the huge heel hook renaissance, float passing, straitjacket system, K-guard, worm guard and all the crazy lapel guard variations, and anything that's going on right now.

I see a lot of people using old-school to talk about anything prior to 2000 then new-school for everything after that (but usually stuff from the past 10 years) and I think there's a lot of 2000's stuff that can get tossed into either bin depending on who you talk to.

I would agree with this.

It's also interesting to note that Sperry showed the De La Riva guard on his instructional as a vale tudo guard way back in the day.

That's awesome. I didn't know that. I remember BJ Penn also showing De La Riva guard in his BJJ for MMA belt back in the Victory Belt days. I don't know if he was showing sweeps but he was at least showing it as a way of retention and maybe some upkicks.
16 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 5370

I think one thing that never gets addressed is how different jiu-jitsu gets as you move up the weight Super and ultra-heavy is a completely different game than any of the roosters are playing. There’s almost 0 inverting outside of retention, almost no bolos, a lot less guard pulling, almost no double pull to a 50/50 battle. 

Hence when people talk shit about “new” jiu jitsu I assume they’re manlets. 

Edited: 16 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 9276
HillboFrateTrane -

I think one thing that never gets addressed is how different jiu-jitsu gets as you move up the weight Super and ultra-heavy is a completely different game than any of the roosters are playing. There’s almost 0 inverting outside of retention, almost no bolos, a lot less guard pulling, almost no double pull to a 50/50 battle. 

Hence when people talk shit about “new” jiu jitsu I assume they’re manlets. 

I know a lot of big guys who are just fans of bjj first and foremost. They mostly talk shit about new bjj because of the boring strategy and playing to win by points. I think that is the biggest complaint. 

16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39548
HillboFrateTrane - 

I think one thing that never gets addressed is how different jiu-jitsu gets as you move up the weight Super and ultra-heavy is a completely different game than any of the roosters are playing. There’s almost 0 inverting outside of retention, almost no bolos, a lot less guard pulling, almost no double pull to a 50/50 battle. 

Hence when people talk shit about “new” jiu jitsu I assume they’re manlets. 


Very true that top weight BJJ is QUITE different from lighter weight BJJ.

Changes in the strength-to-weight ratio, as you go up in weight, change everything.



16 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 694
HillboFrateTrane - 

I think one thing that never gets addressed is how different jiu-jitsu gets as you move up the weight Super and ultra-heavy is a completely different game than any of the roosters are playing. There’s almost 0 inverting outside of retention, almost no bolos, a lot less guard pulling, almost no double pull to a 50/50 battle. 

Hence when people talk shit about “new” jiu jitsu I assume they’re manlets. 


This is true and I think a lot of it is because I don't think most people follow as many larger grapplers are watch as many of the upper weight classes. Roger, Buchecha, Rodolfo, and Cyborg have all been popular. Gordon Ryan and Leandro Lo are big now.

But besides those people I think a lot of practitioners seem to make a mental cut off above medium-heavy and don't follow closely those big weight classes.
15 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 996
circusmonkey -

If Royce Gracie UFC 1 is the reason you got in to jiu-jitsu & you're still training, you are doing old school.

I got into BJJ because of Royce, went to his seminar and had a blast. Showed open hands slaps to set up submissions, butterfly sweeps, overhead sweeps, rear naked chokes.

 

I also compete in IBJJF competitions at black belt. I always pull guard, play DeLeRiva, love 50/50 and worm guard

 

What school am I in?

15 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3454
mideastgrappler - 
circusmonkey -

If Royce Gracie UFC 1 is the reason you got in to jiu-jitsu & you're still training, you are doing old school.

I got into BJJ because of Royce, went to his seminar and had a blast. Showed open hands slaps to set up submissions, butterfly sweeps, overhead sweeps, rear naked chokes.

 

I also compete in IBJJF competitions at black belt. I always pull guard, play DeLeRiva, love 50/50 and worm guard

 

What school am I in?


Middle school?

15 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 695
mideastgrappler - 
circusmonkey -

If Royce Gracie UFC 1 is the reason you got in to jiu-jitsu & you're still training, you are doing old school.

I got into BJJ because of Royce, went to his seminar and had a blast. Showed open hands slaps to set up submissions, butterfly sweeps, overhead sweeps, rear naked chokes.

 

I also compete in IBJJF competitions at black belt. I always pull guard, play DeLeRiva, love 50/50 and worm guard

 

What school am I in?


I'd say you're an open minded middle schooler.

I also think a lot of reasons for starting training can tell you what era you're in.

Old school guys (prior to mid 00's) got in because of the early UFCs and/or were disgruntled with whatever martial art they were already doing and wanted something more effective.

Middle school guys (early-mid 00's and possibly early 10's) got in during the TUF era and may have done other martial arts before as well. Either that or they liked the UFC but didn't want to do MMA. For example I wanted to do the closest thing I could to MMA but didn't want to get hit.

New school guys (anything beyond early 10') are the first generation to get into BJJ with possibly zero interest in MMA or real fighting. Many got interested because of podcasts like Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, and others. BJJ was sold to them as a lifestyle activity like yoga or crossfit. This is the first group to really get into BJJ for BJJ's sake.