David Jacobs' BJJGround What is the belief... more history stuff

9/15/20 11:42 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9124

So I here people  say this about jiu-jitsu all the time, "they were doing ______________ in Judo."

 

My question is were they doing ______________ before Judo?

 

 

In other words, how much different was ground fighting before the Kodokan?

 

Were there any ryu's that were grappling similarly to basic jiu-jitsu before Kano started doing his thing?

Edited: 12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39215


Apparently, there were some s t y l e s  that had a decent amount of newaza and some styles that did some form of modified "randori", but I think Judo was pretty revolutionary for it's time.

According to "Gracie history & marketing" the Fusen Ryu did a lot of ground fighting and is largely the "jiu jitsu"  Maeda taught Carlos Gracie, BUT... this is not true.

Fusen Ryu did NOT have a lot of ground grappling and Maeda was in fact a Judo teacher. Some Gracie histories have been fairly disingenuous about this topic, confusing people with the use of the terms "jiu jitsu" & "Judo", (e.g. 'Maeda taught Carlos Gracie traditional Ju Jutsu') in order to pretend "their" s t y l e (Gracie Jiu Jitsu) is rooted in mysterious old-tyme Japanese Ju jitsu, when in fact it's rooted in early Kodokan Judo. (Gracie histories don't tend to outright lie as much as they tend to lie by omission.)

FWIW, there is yet another layer to this in that one of Maeda's teachers who studied Fusen Ryu was also a newaza specialist, but that was in addition to his Fusen Ryu training, not as a result of it. Imagine a karate instructor who was also a high school wrestler and years later people claiming the guy's karate was wrestling based. --Sorta like that.

The "wrestling" you see in Koryu ("Ancient") martial arts is not much like BJJ or folk wrestling because that wouldn't have made any sense on a battlefield. I remember training with a Tenjinshinyo Ryu group and the sensei explained that these were moves that were intended to be done IN battle armor ("kumi uchi"). When you realize that, traditional jujutsu moves make a lot more sense. (For example, shoving someone's chin up & backwards and tripping him is a lot more effective if he's wearing a 30 lb helmet). Also, needless to say, if someone goes to the ground in armor, during a battle, they probably aren't getting back up.

So, the newaza of traditional jujutsu is more along the lines of stab your opponent in the armpit with a knife while kneeling on him, or break your opponent's arm while kneeling on him. Flat "on the ground" grappling like we see in Judo & BJJ, with all the cool sweeps & reversals and different guards is --in historical terms-- much more modern. It's largely a post-Edo era (after 1867) thing.

A lot of the Japanese arts we think of as "ancient" martial arts, are actually from that period --much more modern than we tend to assume. Before that time jujutsu was usually just a very small part of a much, much larger weapons-based warrior's curriculum. As far as I know, there were not distinct Ju jutsu-only S T Y L E S, as we know them today. So when people talk about the Samurai using Ju jutsu, Samurai didn't fight in battle using jujutsu any more than a Marine fights in battle using boxing. Complete systems of fighting based on throws, leverage & joint-locks that we today call "jiu jitsu/ju jutsu/ju jitsu" largely developed AFTER the time of the Samurai.
9/16/20 12:58 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 39216

Good to see the old S T Y L E bug is still here.

9/16/20 5:35 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9126

Thanks Shen

9/16/20 12:08 PM
12/26/02
Posts: 12182

in

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13638

Maetaemon Tanabe who taught out of yotaro Handa's dojo, was the major innovator in newaza, the only reason the kodokan implemented it was to stop their losses to the handa dojo. Tanabe had a long history of giving the kodokan a good kicking, he later inherited the mastership of fusen ryu, which is where the confabulation comes from. The most famous japanese scrappers of the day(Tani, Uyenishi, Taro Miyake) all came the handa dojo and were prior students of tanabe.

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13639

That's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. As for the kodokan, its own newaza innovators were yokoyama and odo, they were standing on the shoulders of giants, namely tanabe and handa, when they started though

13 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 9269
de braco -

That's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. As for the kodokan, its own newaza innovators were yokoyama and odo, they were standing on the shoulders of giants, namely tanabe and handa, when they started though

Thanks

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13651

Sorry about killing your thread, once i start my handa bullshit, tumbleweeds begin to blow, spiders occupy the dark corners and snakes colonize the deserted corridors

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39538

 

*A LONE TUMBLEWEED BLOWS THROUGH THE THREAD*

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13657

WATCH OUT FOR SNAKES!!!

13 days ago
8/28/10
Posts: 14011
de braco -

WATCH OUT FOR SNAKES!!!

Are they on a plane?

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 1626

I Always appreciate these threads.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13668
Sometimes covid-19 lets me porrada -
de braco -

WATCH OUT FOR SNAKES!!!

Are they on a plane?

 

I'm afraid they slither about in the broken dreams of the dead thread, cut down in its prime by my droning pedantic bullshit. If you're wearing that rickson track suit though, you're probably impervious to your everyday garden variety venomous reptile, so no need to take a break driver eight

12 days ago
12/26/02
Posts: 12202
de braco - 

Maetaemon Tanabe who taught out of yotaro Handa's dojo, was the major innovator in newaza, the only reason the kodokan implemented it was to stop their losses to the handa dojo. Tanabe had a long history of giving the kodokan a good kicking, he later inherited the mastership of fusen ryu, which is where the confabulation comes from. The most famous japanese scrappers of the day(Tani, Uyenishi, Taro Miyake) all came the handa dojo and were prior students of tanabe.


de braco, what's the story with the whole "Kano shifted the emphasis to randori by removing the craziest stuff; well wait maybe no we had plenty of randori before that" mixed narrative?  

12 days ago
7/6/06
Posts: 495

I will never tire of posting this book 

 

To dispute shen's point a bit, while -unarmed- fighting is secondary in most koryu material, it's not all battlefield or armoued stuff. Araki Ryu, which is one of the older extant koryu, famously has a kata teaching the right way to stab a dude while serving him tea: 

12 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 26255
PointyShinyBurn -

I will never tire of posting this book 

 

To dispute shen's point a bit, while -unarmed- fighting is secondary in most koryu material, it's not all battlefield or armoued stuff. Araki Ryu, which is one of the older extant koryu, famously has a kata teaching the right way to stab a dude while serving him tea: 

WHOAA that video was surprisingly cool

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39547

That's true, not ALL styles were created for the battlefield. There were also different styles of Iaijutsu that were for "civilian" self-defense, etc.

But fighting wearing armor was a PART of the curriculum of MANY styles. Fighting in armor was the starting point of a lot of martial arts techniques which later became used in unarmed fighting arts. But in armor, a lot of them just make more sense.

Even in modern arts like Aikido, the obsession with "wrist control" makes a more sense when you realize most the unarmed attacks were based on weapon attacks. It might not make much sense against a push or grab --which is how it's demonstrated-- but against someone lunging with a tanto, it makes a little more sense.

My point is, jiu jitsu came mostly through larger, weapon based curriculum. When the weapons disappeared, old ju jutsu techniques were re-purposed. The art expanded greatly in scope, leading --eventually-- to the kind of complex ground grappling OP was asking about.
Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13691
PointyShinyBurn -

I will never tire of posting this book 

 

To dispute shen's point a bit, while -unarmed- fighting is secondary in most koryu material, it's not all battlefield or armoued stuff. Araki Ryu, which is one of the older extant koryu, famously has a kata teaching the right way to stab a dude while serving him tea: 

that's not the original cover though, my copy didn't have a cover and i had a copy of the london times with that advertisement for the book and just resized it. I made a much better one where i tinted all the pictures and advertisements for gi's and such in the back. The drawings i tinted the uke in a blue gi, or maybe the tori? one of the two. I was waiting until the turn of 2020 to release it because of the death of tani and public domain, i didn't bother though. I'm practically the only one that cares.

Edit: Both of the authors of "the game of jujitsu" were from Yotaro Handa's Osaka dojo and had absolutely nothing to do with the kodokan. Another Japanese guy named koizumi founded the budokwai in London. Yukio Tani joined him there as the head instructor and when Kano made a tour of Europe he gifted Tani a second dan if he would bring the budokwai into the kodokan fold. This was years after Tani had became world-famous for his challenge matches in Great Britain as well as the continent.

Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13692
twinkletoesCT -
de braco - 

Maetaemon Tanabe who taught out of yotaro Handa's dojo, was the major innovator in newaza, the only reason the kodokan implemented it was to stop their losses to the handa dojo. Tanabe had a long history of giving the kodokan a good kicking, he later inherited the mastership of fusen ryu, which is where the confabulation comes from. The most famous japanese scrappers of the day(Tani, Uyenishi, Taro Miyake) all came the handa dojo and were prior students of tanabe.

 

de braco, what's the story with the whole "Kano shifted the emphasis to randori by removing the craziest stuff; well wait maybe no we had plenty of randori before that" mixed narrative?  

it seems he didn't really believe in newaza until they started racking up embarrassing losses to Tanabe, who would just pull guard and not engage in the throwing game. At the time the Handa crew were dominating in the high school duel meets also so he had to do something, yokoyama and odo began developing newaza for the kodokan based on the kickings they got from Tanabe and handa. Prior to Tanabe, there was really no groundwork in judo. Even to this day the kosen meets all start on their knees, as a nod, even if they're unaware as to why they do it, to Handa and tanabe. Tanabe based his whole s.t.y.l.e around unarmed "duel" type competition, so he was a far out cat as far as the rest of the koyryu crowd were concerned, as he wasn't concerned about controlling the sword arm or the other things that marked the "real" koyryu >