David Jacobs' BJJGround When is someone ready to be promoted to black IYO?

15 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1550

Years of training? 

Able to beat browns and compete with blacks?

Technical proficiency?

Knowledge of (positions, subs, tranisitions, etc)

thoughts?

Edited: 15 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 23387

Every jack ass has a black belt these days. Its  definitely an achievement, but not some miraculous feat that it can be made out to be. As long as they can hold their own against other brown and blacks its sufficient. If you want to add some other arbitrary criteria thats entirely up to the promoter.

15 days ago
2/28/03
Posts: 47677

Complete game 

15 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7347

When they are able to grapple at a level that an imaginary exact clone of their body with black belt level technique could grapple at.

15 days ago
2/5/06
Posts: 3130

Complete game is the best answer I think.

15 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 527

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

15 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7348
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.

15 days ago
9/10/13
Posts: 1522

What’s considered a complete game? 

Edited: 15 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7349
 
 
pahulkster -

What’s considered a complete game? 

My opinion

 

submissions from positions with combinations

defense to submissions 

Control, escapes, and transitions

 

 

Dominant positions- opponent facing down

front kneeling (turtle)

back kneeling (turtle)

back mount (hooks in)

 

Dominant Positions- opponent facing up

side control

mount

back control

 

Minor variations of each major position such as:

modified scarf, reverse scarf, north south variations, 100 kilos, knee-on-belly, modified mount, s-mount, gift wrap, low mid and high mount, underhook side back control, overhook side back control, etc

 

Guard should have an answer for downed guard position (opponent standing) at different distances, open guard (opponent kneeling), closed guard and it’s variations, half guard and it’s variations.

 

Guard passing-opening closed guard, passing open guard standing, kneeling, half, butterfly, and the major sport guards

 

 

 

standing has open range, clinches, and takedowns, and defenses

 

 

A game can focus primarily on one of your choice but should be able to adapt to gi, nogi, and vale tudo to be complete.

 

15 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1563
Calhoon -
 
 
pahulkster -

What’s considered a complete game? 

My opinion

 

submissions from positions with combinations

defense to submissions 

Control, escapes, and transitions

 

 

Dominant positions- opponent facing down

front kneeling (turtle)

back kneeling (turtle)

back mount (hooks in)

 

Dominant Positions- opponent facing up

side control

mount

back control

 

Minor variations of each major position such as:

modified scarf, reverse scarf, north south variations, 100 kilos, knee-on-belly, modified mount, s-mount, gift wrap, low mid and high mount, underhook side back control, overhook side back control, etc

 

Guard should have an answer for downed guard position (opponent standing) at different distances, open guard (opponent kneeling), closed guard and it’s variations, half guard and it’s variations.

 

Guard passing-opening closed guard, passing open guard standing, kneeling, half, butterfly, and the major sport guards

 

 

 

standing has open range, clinches, and takedowns, and defenses

 

 

A game can focus primarily on one of your choice but should be able to adapt to gi, nogi, and vale tudo to be complete.

 

Nice. 

15 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 528
Calhoon - 
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.


So if time shouldn't be a factor, should the BB promote said 4 stripe brown belt immediately? What if you feel like he would leave your school the moment you promoted him? What if you feel zero loyalty or connection from that student? Just seems like there's more at play than "skill" and "overall knowledge"
15 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7350
SpeedKing9 -
Calhoon - 
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.


So if time shouldn't be a factor, should the BB promote said 4 stripe brown belt immediately? What if you feel like he would leave your school the moment you promoted him? What if you feel zero loyalty or connection from that student? Just seems like there's more at play than "skill" and "overall knowledge"

If he has the skill and knowledge and has a good reason for switching schools then I feel it shouldn’t take him long to be promoted.

14 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 18598
SpeedKing9 -
Calhoon - 
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.


So if time shouldn't be a factor, should the BB promote said 4 stripe brown belt immediately? What if you feel like he would leave your school the moment you promoted him? What if you feel zero loyalty or connection from that student? Just seems like there's more at play than "skill" and "overall knowledge"

I would never promote someone I did not know well.  What if he's a complete asshole?  Your name gets associated with them through lineage forever!

14 days ago
3/15/15
Posts: 12128
Complete game is not good enough since the "game" keeps changing. A complete game of 50 years ago is different than one today.
There should be performance criteria and technique and strategy criteria dependent on motives/ambitions, body type, age, capacity, etc.
There should be components of effectiveness through refinement and efficiency, and practical conceptual application.

14 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 3222
HotSteppa - Complete game is not good enough since the "game" keeps changing. A complete game of 50 years ago is different than one today.
There should be performance criteria and technique and strategy criteria dependent on motives/ambitions, body type, age, capacity, etc.
There should be components of effectiveness through refinement and efficiency, and practical conceptual application.

Good point. A black belt should have enough knowledge of human movement and Jiu-Jitsu concepts to be able to dissect and apply new games. 

14 days ago
2/27/08
Posts: 1647
HotSteppa - Complete game is not good enough since the "game" keeps changing. A complete game of 50 years ago is different than one today.
There should be performance criteria and technique and strategy criteria dependent on motives/ambitions, body type, age, capacity, etc.
There should be components of effectiveness through refinement and efficiency, and practical conceptual application.


For the vast majority of us these things manifest as "beating other people on the mat".
13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 1031
deepu - 
SpeedKing9 -
Calhoon - 
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.


So if time shouldn't be a factor, should the BB promote said 4 stripe brown belt immediately? What if you feel like he would leave your school the moment you promoted him? What if you feel zero loyalty or connection from that student? Just seems like there's more at play than "skill" and "overall knowledge"

I would never promote someone I did not know well.  What if he's a complete asshole?  Your name gets associated with them through lineage forever!


This. I know a guy that promoted someone to black belt, then less than a year later realized what douche the guy was when he tried to steal students from a sister school.
12 days ago
3/27/14
Posts: 410
deepu -
SpeedKing9 -
Calhoon - 
SpeedKing9 -

Everyone thinks about how good one’s game is but what about the ‘other’ factors. What if someone is a 4 stripe brown belt and starts at your school. He defeats all your brown and black belt students including yourself. How soon do you promote him? He has a complete game but obviously is brand new to your school. I actually know of someone in this exact scenario and I wonder if he will be held FOREVER because he is brand new to the school.

Time shouldn’t be a factor imo because there are quick learners. A complete game should be obtained by purple belt also imo. Brown and black is about unconcsiuos competence for better timing and perfecting the complete game.


So if time shouldn't be a factor, should the BB promote said 4 stripe brown belt immediately? What if you feel like he would leave your school the moment you promoted him? What if you feel zero loyalty or connection from that student? Just seems like there's more at play than "skill" and "overall knowledge"

I would never promote someone I did not know well.  What if he's a complete asshole?  Your name gets associated with them through lineage forever!

100%. A new four stripe brown belt would have to spend a couple of years with us until we'd even consider promoting him. 

Edited: 12 days ago
3/18/02
Posts: 747
TheBearStare -

Every jack ass has a black belt these days. Its  definitely an achievement, but not some miraculous feat that it can be made out to be. As long as they can hold their own against other brown and blacks its sufficient. If you want to add some other arbitrary criteria thats entirely up to the promoter.

So how about a guy in his 50's who has a decent technical game and has been training 10+ years? Should he be able to beat browns and purples?

 

Edited: 12 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1599

The vast majority of purples, yes

and competitive with the browns?

12 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 23391
TBoy2 -
TheBearStare -

Every jack ass has a black belt these days. Its  definitely an achievement, but not some miraculous feat that it can be made out to be. As long as they can hold their own against other brown and blacks its sufficient. If you want to add some other arbitrary criteria thats entirely up to the promoter.

So how about a guy in his 50's who has a decent technical game and has been training 10+ years? Should he be able to beat browns and purples?

 

His age yes

Edited: 12 days ago
3/18/02
Posts: 748

Thanks for the answers. I was just curious at what people thought. I definately agree with TheBearStare.

 

Strangleu, I agree with purples and not so sure about the browns. Do you think an averge 50+ year old should be competive with a 25 yr old brown. I do think it depends. If it is a technical roll then yes, but a full on hard roll then maybe not. 

11 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1609

In my gym the older browns and blacks are competitive with the younger ones but I wonder if that’s just an anomaly. But none of them are likely winning the mundials either

 

11 days ago
3/18/02
Posts: 749
Strangleu -

In my gym the older browns and blacks are competitive with the younger ones but I wonder if that’s just an anomaly. But none of them are likely winning the mundials either

 

Interesting. I just left the school I have been at for many years but it is in a college town. So we got some good wrestlers. There are not too many older guys but it is common for the athletic purples and browns to beat the older 50+ guys of a higher rank. There were only a couple regular black belts and maybe 3 browns. Not too many middle age guys stay with BJJ and the ones that do usually have some kind of injury. I mean there were quite a few but most of course eventually drop out just like the younger guys. The head instructor was in his early 30s and was very good who could tap everyone. 

11 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 7353
TBoy2 -

Thanks for the answers. I was just curious at what people thought. I definately agree with TheBearStare.

 

Strangleu, I agree with purples and not so sure about the browns. Do you think an averge 50+ year old should be competive with a 25 yr old brown. I do think it depends. If it is a technical roll then yes, but a full on hard roll then maybe not. 

Age is only one factor and the numbers are not enough info to determine if one should be competative with the other. Are they both healthy and in shape for example? This is why I say its best to compare someone to what their imaginary clone would roll like with black belt skills.