David Jacobs' BJJGround Who did Carlson Gracie consider to be the best?

Edited: 8/12/20 5:13 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2179

In this video  Ricardo "Kiko" Veloso (7th degree black belt under Carlson Gracie) says Carlson considered Rolls Gracie, Joao Alberto Barreto, Rickson Gracie, and Cassio Cardoso to be the best gi fighters of all time. Carlson passed away in 2006 in case anyone is wondering. 

8/13/20 8:25 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 16459

Would be interesting to have had him rank those 4.

Edited: 8/13/20 9:44 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2180
FatBuddha - Would be interesting to have had him rank those 4.

 

I think he would put Rolls at #1 but I could be wrong. Rolls was so well rounded with good wrestling and judo to complement his jiu-jitsu. 

 

8/13/20 10:04 PM
1/1/01
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Aaron Lapointe - 
FatBuddha - Would be interesting to have had him rank those 4.

 

I think he would put Rolls at #1 but I could be wrong. Rolls was so well rounded with good wrestling and judo to complement his jiu-jitsu. 

 


And placing in Sambo at the Pan Ams
8/14/20 12:48 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 689

Can anyone ELI5 Cardosa and Barreto? I've never even heard of them.

8/14/20 2:04 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2181
blabbermouth -

Can anyone ELI5 Cardosa and Barreto? I've never even heard of them.

Joao Alberto Barreto
 

Cássio Cardoso

8/14/20 3:28 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2182

There are a lot of interviews on youtube with Carlson Gracie students (e.g., Wallid, Crezio de Souza, Bustamante, etc) and other BJJ practitioners talking about Cassio, but almost all of them are in Portuguese. Here is one in English.  

Edited: 8/14/20 7:17 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 690
Aaron Lapointe -
blabbermouth -

Can anyone ELI5 Cardosa and Barreto? I've never even heard of them.

Joao Alberto Barreto
 

Cássio Cardoso

Sweet! thank you

 

There aren't many Barreto vids on youtube, but there are quite a few Cordoso vids, including his hour-long fight against Marcelo Behring.

 

I found this technique vid that I really like.

 

 

EDIT: lol i found another cool vid and just realized it's from your youtube channel. Not sure what he means by "shaking", though

 

8/14/20 7:26 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2183

That last clip you posted was when Cassio came to Chicago for about 4 months in 2003 to teach at Carlson Jr's school. Carlson Sr. was there at this time as well and is sitting on the ring. I was at this seminar and I have all of the techniques on a DVD. Watch what he does with his legs when he's lifting Carlos over for the sweep. The vibrating of his legs is what he means by the shake. 

8/14/20 8:33 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 13600
Carlson would always flip-flop depending on his mood and antagonism towards Helio and Rorion, etc. but I have it on very good authority from years ago (I posted this a while) back, that he considered Rickson the best he'd seen but would change that depending on his anger LOL which increased as he got older.
8/15/20 2:29 PM
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Carlson commented before that either Mario Sperry or Murilo Bustamante would beat Rickson, but it's very possible he was just trying to spark interest in a match that never happened rather than really believing it. Who knows.
8/15/20 5:21 PM
5/30/03
Posts: 42757
HotSteppa - Carlson would always flip-flop depending on his mood and antagonism towards Helio and Rorion, etc. but I have it on very good authority from years ago (I posted this a while) back, that he considered Rickson the best he'd seen but would change that depending on his anger LOL which increased as he got older.

100% accurate. I've been around him when he's gone back and forth at different seminars. 

 

What's hilarious is if he's mad at you, you're now terrible at bjj. You don't just drop from #1 to #2

8/16/20 6:47 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2188

On a side note I just read an interview from 2017 with Fernando Pinduka who is a red belt in BJJ and started training under Carlson in 1968. This is snipet from the interview. First in Portuguese and then translated with Google Translate. It almost sounds like he's saying Rorion Gracie was a student of Carlson at one time?? 

 

Qual aquele treino (atleta) que você falava: “treino cascagrossa esse aqui….” ??

Eu aprendi treinando sempre com os mais graduados. Eram os que me faziam aprender? perdendo, para que eu pudesse ganhar nas competições. Quando eu era faixa azul, treinava só com marrom e preta e dificilmente treinava com alguém da minha faixa. Aprendi muito com os graduados da minha época que faziam parte da primeira geração de alunos do Carlson. Entre eles: Carley Gracie, Rocian Gracie, Rolls Gracie (faixa marrom na época) Edir, o Monge Ata, Rorion Gracie, Reyson Gracie, Sergio Iris, Tony de Pádua, Vander de Souza, Mário Cupertino, Fábio Macieira e um exército de pupilos ávidos em aprender. Eu fui da segunda geração.
 

(Question) What was that training (athlete) that you said: “I train this one here….” ?

 

(Pinduka) I learned by always training with the most graduated. They were the ones who made me learn by losing, so I could win in competitions. When I was a blue belt, I trained only with brown and black and hardly trained with anyone in my belt. I learned a lot from the graduates of my time who were part of the first generation of Carlson students. Among them: Carley Gracie, Rocian Gracie, Rolls Gracie (brown belt at the time) Edir, Monk Ata, Rorion Gracie, Reyson Gracie, Sergio Iris, Tony de Padua, Vander de Souza, Mário Cupertino, Fábio Macieira and an army of pupils eager to learn. I was a second generation.
 
8/17/20 12:57 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 3322
Aaron Lapointe - 

On a side note I just read an interview from 2017 with Fernando Pinduka who is a red belt in BJJ and started training under Carlson in 1968. This is snipet from the interview. First in Portuguese and then translated with Google Translate. It almost sounds like he's saying Rorion Gracie was a student of Carlson at one time?? 

 

Qual aquele treino (atleta) que você falava: “treino cascagrossa esse aqui….” ??

Eu aprendi treinando sempre com os mais graduados. Eram os que me faziam aprender? perdendo, para que eu pudesse ganhar nas competições. Quando eu era faixa azul, treinava só com marrom e preta e dificilmente treinava com alguém da minha faixa. Aprendi muito com os graduados da minha época que faziam parte da primeira geração de alunos do Carlson. Entre eles: Carley Gracie, Rocian Gracie, Rolls Gracie (faixa marrom na época) Edir, o Monge Ata, Rorion Gracie, Reyson Gracie, Sergio Iris, Tony de Pádua, Vander de Souza, Mário Cupertino, Fábio Macieira e um exército de pupilos ávidos em aprender. Eu fui da segunda geração.
 

(Question) What was that training (athlete) that you said: “I train this one here….” ?

 

(Pinduka) I learned by always training with the most graduated. They were the ones who made me learn by losing, so I could win in competitions. When I was a blue belt, I trained only with brown and black and hardly trained with anyone in my belt. I learned a lot from the graduates of my time who were part of the first generation of Carlson students. Among them: Carley Gracie, Rocian Gracie, Rolls Gracie (brown belt at the time) Edir, Monk Ata, Rorion Gracie, Reyson Gracie, Sergio Iris, Tony de Padua, Vander de Souza, Mário Cupertino, Fábio Macieira and an army of pupils eager to learn. I was a second generation.
 

I'm sure Rorion learned under both Carlson and Robson when Helio didn't teach him. Mostly like the other senior instructors as well like Pedro Hemeterio, Joao Alberto Barreto, Armando Wriedt, Helio Vigio.
8/23/20 3:00 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2196

Here is an interview with Carlson I found in a 2006 Gracie Magazine I own. It is only in Portuguese so I entered it in Google Translate. I have also included the original Portuguese below since some things can get lost in translation.  

 

Here you prepared your first team of students, right?

It was a very good team. The first generation had Sergio Iris, Nando Frances, Rosado, Pinduka, and Luiz Fernando. I remember that with a year and a half of academy I called Rolls, put him to train with Serginho Iris, who for me was one of the best students I have had until today, together with Liborio. I convinced Rolls that he had a lot to improve, and he started training with me every Thursday, Friday and Saturday, at the gym I opened in Niteroi. He took it seriously, slept there, trained as a donkey and learned everything, he was one of those boring guys. "Teach me this, teach me that." "Wait, Rolls. Let me rest." No, teach me. "And it really was a phenomenon. Osvaldo Alves taught judo only to him, and he learned very well. He against Iris, at the time, focused on a tremendous hard pair, the two trained and came out sparkly. Serginho was heavier than the Rolls, but he was very good.

Why do you say that Liborio and Serginho were your best athletes?

I will not say that they are better, but they are phenomenal. Serginho was a very flexible guy. The guy immobilized him by the head, and he let him be immobilized and fatally grabbed the other's back, no one escaped. Everyone knows Liborio.

 

Aqui voce preparou seu primeiro time de alunos, certo?

Foi uma equipe muito boa. A primeira generacoa tinha Sergio Iris, Nando Frances, Rosado, Pinduka, e Luiz Fernando. lembro que com um ano e meio de academia chamei o Rolls, botava ele pra treinar com o Serginho Iris, que para mim foi un dos melhores alunos que tive ate hoje, juntamante com o Liborio. Convenci o Rolls que ele tinha muito o que melhorar, e ele comecou a treiner comigo toda quinta, sexta e sabado, na academia que abri em Niteroi. Ele levou a serio, dormia la treinou pra burro e aprendeu tudo, era daqueles caras chatos. "Me ensina isso, me ensina aquilo." "Perai Rolls. deixa eu descansar." Nao, me ensina." E realmente ficou um fenomeno. Osvaldo Alves dava aula de judo somente pra ele, e ele aprendeu muito bem. Ele contra o Iris, na epoca, focou um pareo duro tremendo, os, dois treinavam e saia faisca. O Serginho era mais pesa-do que o Rolls, mas era muito bom. 

Por que voce diz que Liborio e Serginho foram os seus melohores atletas?

Nao vou dizer que sejam melhores, mas sao fenomenos. Serginho era um cara muito flexivel. O sujeito imobilizava ele pela cabeca, e ele deixava ser imobilizado e fatalmente pegava as costas do outro, ninguem escapava. O Liborio todos conhecem. 
9/17/20 6:55 AM
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Posts: 8136

I ways thought he said liborio was his best student, but I haven't idea where I remember that from.

9/17/20 4:51 PM
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Posts: 3341
JoejitsuMD - Carlson commented before that either Mario Sperry or Murilo Bustamante would beat Rickson, but it's very possible he was just trying to spark interest in a match that never happened rather than really believing it. Who knows.

In mid 90's Carlson said Liborio would beat Rickson in the gi and Vitor would beat him in Vale Tudo.
9/17/20 6:33 PM
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https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forums/UnderGround/How-good-is-Liborio:2455369

9/17/20 6:39 PM
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https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forums/BJJ/Lets-talk-about-Liborio:2363802#post-50781620

9/17/20 6:42 PM
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Posts: 8143

There was another older one I can't find

9/17/20 7:04 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2205
fatfrenchfry - 

I ways thought he said liborio was his best student, but I haven't idea where I remember that from.


As you can see from the interview I posted above Carlson often mentioned Liborio as one of his best students, but like others have stated it was probably hard for him to commit to an all-time best. One thing about Carlson is that he didn't like to favor one particular student, no matter how good they were. 

9/17/20 7:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39232
Aaron Lapointe - 
fatfrenchfry - 

I ways thought he said liborio was his best student, but I haven't idea where I remember that from.


As you can see from the interview I posted above Carlson often mentioned Liborio as one of his best students, but like others have stated it was probably hard for him to commit to an all-time best. One thing about Carlson is that he didn't like to favor one particular student, no matter how good they were. 


Also,as you well know, he had different "generations" of students too. Differnt eras. Kinda hard to compare people across timelines.
9/17/20 7:44 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2206
shen - 
Aaron Lapointe - 
fatfrenchfry - 

I ways thought he said liborio was his best student, but I haven't idea where I remember that from.


As you can see from the interview I posted above Carlson often mentioned Liborio as one of his best students, but like others have stated it was probably hard for him to commit to an all-time best. One thing about Carlson is that he didn't like to favor one particular student, no matter how good they were. 


Also,as you well know, he had different "generations" of students too. Differnt eras. Kinda hard to compare people across timelines.

Exactly. One reason I hate hearing people saying "So and So" from this era would beat "So and So" from that era. You can't really compare greatness from different eras. Both people are/were great in their respective eras. And if someone was great in their era then there is a good chance that they would be great in this one too.  

9/19/20 6:33 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2207

One Carlson Gracie black belt you don't always hear mentioned with the best, but who deserves serious consideration is Julio "Foca" Fernandez. I just read a post by Soneca where he said that Carlson told him that Foca was the best black belt he produced. And Carlson told me personally that Julio and another black belt whose name escapes me were the two best competitors on his team. 

Edited: 9/25/20 10:02 AM
5/8/11
Posts: 6855
Aaron Lapointe -

One Carlson Gracie black belt you don't always hear mentioned with the best, but who deserves serious consideration is Julio "Foca" Fernandez. I just read a post by Soneca where he said that Carlson told him that Foca was the best black belt he produced. And Carlson told me personally that Julio and another black belt whose name escapes me were the two best competitors on his team. 

Had the pleasure of training with Julio last year.  His stories are as awesome as his C L A S S E S. He is still a monster today!