David Jacobs' BJJGround Why the hip escape is bad for guard retention

9/27/20 6:58 AM
10/19/02
Posts: 354

9/27/20 8:37 AM
8/20/16
Posts: 788

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!

9/27/20 10:15 AM
3/16/07
Posts: 1178

Same! I don’t think the hip escape is the end-be-all off guard retention like it’s made out to be in most schools. I’ve found more success with the high pummel and cross snake in recovering.

9/27/20 11:11 AM
3/15/15
Posts: 13798
This is good but very old news. Most wrestlers and Judoka know to control hip area. Most BJJers tend to control higher towards sternum when on top. His argument is valid when you are playing from the bottom in a sort between guard and sidemount area. If you are flat out pinned in sidemount non of this is applicable because you are forced to push off the floor wioth your feet whether you like it or not.

Saulo was teaching this idea about 15 years ago, about the space near outside leg being important, and he promoted a sidemount position from top where you are controling lower to the hip in sidemount with your farm arm controlling his far hip and closing space to nullify to outside leg's ability to create a shrimp that makes space.
9/27/20 1:20 PM
3/6/07
Posts: 6188

Click bait title. 
 

hip escape is fantastic for guard retention, especially in a self defense situation. 
 

once you start play the “game” of bjj , sure now you need some counters to the counters. I saw one reply saying , “oh, no wonder my hip escape never works”.  You are going against someone in your little roll session that is better than you :)
 

but I get it, everyone trying to make some cash. 
 


 

 

9/27/20 4:31 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2210
blabbermouth - 

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!


Lachlan's method is great if you are 100% committed to playing guard. The hip escape, however, is invaluable in my opinion because it also gives you the option of going to your belly or knees so you can try and stand up and get top position if you choose to abandon guard.    

Edited: 9/27/20 5:39 PM
3/20/14
Posts: 961

Great: He just ruined my new new clothing and apparel line "Hip Escape".

9/27/20 6:24 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39365
circusmonkey - 

Great: He just ruined my new new clothing and apparel line "Hip Escape".


Last I heard "Butt Scoot" is still available.
9/27/20 6:34 PM
2/15/14
Posts: 983

I think the title is accurate. People need to read better

The only guard you ever use the shrimp is from half guard. Other than that, you don't really shrimp from any guard except when you are preparing to attack someone.

When your guard has been compromised and you need to rev things up to keep up speed to prevent your guard from fully being passed, this is what guard retention is, and shrimping isn't helpful in this sitaution. The only thing close is if you can shrimp without outting your feet on the ground

Shrimping is garbage for guard RETENTION. Shrimping is great for escapes, for example when your guard has already been passed or you are flattened. In bottom side control or mount, shrimping does wonders. That is not the topic of their DVD  

Edited: 9/27/20 6:40 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 66761
Interesting ideas but similar to his inversion video I think it requires hamstring flexibility to do this sort of granby roll type motion well without crunching your neck/back.

I think usually when I'd hip escape I'd keep my top elbow tight to my body so my opponent can't control the space Lachlan is referring to, and I can fight for an underhook on that side.
9/27/20 10:53 PM
2/25/20
Posts: 0
Tomato Can - Interesting ideas but similar to his inversion video I think it requires hamstring flexibility to do this sort of granby roll type motion well without crunching your neck/back.

I think usually when I'd hip escape I'd keep my top elbow tight to my body so my opponent can't control the space Lachlan is referring to, and I can fight for an underhook on that side.

I agree that this video is clickbaity. This is Lach’s accompanying post from some other forum:

“I used to hip escape, and teach the hip escape for guard retention. It makes sense on a superficial level, but since Ariel Tabak showed me the high pummel, which I now think is the most crucial and versatile movement in guard retention (a complete game changer), I think the hip escape is a thing of the past. Except for escaping side control and making space in half guard.”

I actually took notes from the Lachlan/Gordon ADCC match and felt that Lachlan could have actually done a much better job defensively if he DIDN’T opt for framing against the shoulder like he did in this video. In fact, Gordon only really got the smash in once Lachlan inverted and tried to use his legs to frame against Gordon’s shoulders (like the way he does in this video).

In my opinion, whether I frame against the floor or any other part of my opponent’s body depends entirely on what my opponent gives to me. What I REALLY want is knee-elbow connection on both sides and how I get there is less relevant.
9/28/20 12:18 AM
10/19/02
Posts: 355

Yes a lot of people are misinterpreting my video. I am not talking about escapes, and yes I hip escape from side control, mount etc, as well as for half guard retention (as mentioned).

This is really for open guard retention, many people hip escape as soon as their leg is blocked from reaching their opponent. Other options such as the high pummel and the gangorra roll are what the best guys in the world do in these situations, they do not put their feet on the floor to hip escape. Perhaps at very end stage when your opponent nearly has side control is it worth hiding the underhook and hip escaping, but most people revert to this way too early and it is bad form.

9/28/20 2:01 AM
10/19/02
Posts: 356
shootbjj -
Tomato Can - Interesting ideas but similar to his inversion video I think it requires hamstring flexibility to do this sort of granby roll type motion well without crunching your neck/back.

I think usually when I'd hip escape I'd keep my top elbow tight to my body so my opponent can't control the space Lachlan is referring to, and I can fight for an underhook on that side.

I agree that this video is clickbaity. This is Lach’s accompanying post from some other forum:

“I used to hip escape, and teach the hip escape for guard retention. It makes sense on a superficial level, but since Ariel Tabak showed me the high pummel, which I now think is the most crucial and versatile movement in guard retention (a complete game changer), I think the hip escape is a thing of the past. Except for escaping side control and making space in half guard.”

I actually took notes from the Lachlan/Gordon ADCC match and felt that Lachlan could have actually done a much better job defensively if he DIDN’T opt for framing against the shoulder like he did in this video. In fact, Gordon only really got the smash in once Lachlan inverted and tried to use his legs to frame against Gordon’s shoulders (like the way he does in this video).

In my opinion, whether I frame against the floor or any other part of my opponent’s body depends entirely on what my opponent gives to me. What I REALLY want is knee-elbow connection on both sides and how I get there is less relevant.

I definitely did not use the high pummel vs Gordon because I didn't even know how to do it then, I learnt it later from Ariel. It's not a regular crossover its a specific technique to pummel your leg back, which we reference but do not show how to do in the video above.

Edited: 9/28/20 5:36 AM
2/25/20
Posts: 1
lach -
shootbjj -
Tomato Can - Interesting ideas but similar to his inversion video I think it requires hamstring flexibility to do this sort of granby roll type motion well without crunching your neck/back.

I think usually when I'd hip escape I'd keep my top elbow tight to my body so my opponent can't control the space Lachlan is referring to, and I can fight for an underhook on that side.

I agree that this video is clickbaity. This is Lach’s accompanying post from some other forum:

“I used to hip escape, and teach the hip escape for guard retention. It makes sense on a superficial level, but since Ariel Tabak showed me the high pummel, which I now think is the most crucial and versatile movement in guard retention (a complete game changer), I think the hip escape is a thing of the past. Except for escaping side control and making space in half guard.”

I actually took notes from the Lachlan/Gordon ADCC match and felt that Lachlan could have actually done a much better job defensively if he DIDN’T opt for framing against the shoulder like he did in this video. In fact, Gordon only really got the smash in once Lachlan inverted and tried to use his legs to frame against Gordon’s shoulders (like the way he does in this video).

In my opinion, whether I frame against the floor or any other part of my opponent’s body depends entirely on what my opponent gives to me. What I REALLY want is knee-elbow connection on both sides and how I get there is less relevant.

I definitely did not use the high pummel vs Gordon because I didn't even know how to do it then, I learnt it later from Ariel. It's not a regular crossover its a specific technique to pummel your leg back, which we reference but do not show how to do in the video above.

Apologies - I think i might have misconstrued the exact position you were talking about and glossed over the retention vs escape issue. I agree that the leg pummel is good and very applicable for the situation you described in the video. Personally I've been using the knee shield escape that Xande teaches (he calls it a "shoulder escape") from a similar position but I do think yours is a good alternative.

9/28/20 9:45 AM
11/10/05
Posts: 7478
It's nice to have general principles that you follow. These are prob not the same principals as others but fit your style. There's also always some exceptions. Never really means maybe 90%.

In guard I'm not sure that I really shrimp my hips in a way that's generally discussed. If you leave your shoulder in the same place, then you're just rotating in a circle. By shrimping out this way to make space, your knee or foot has to go at an 8:00 or 9:00 angle instead of a 6:00 or 7:00 angle. So your gain in space is minimized by your more difficult angle (possible exception being that you can get your hips off the mat enough to circle your leg over the top).

So when I shrimp, I'm generally sliding my shoulder north or south to change my overall position (adding translation to any rotation for you linear algebra peeps)


My personal #1 rule of open guard is don't let your opponent control the inside of your thigh (specifically the one that goes across the front of him e.g. in dlr)
Edited: 9/28/20 1:30 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9198
blabbermouth -

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!

Yes hip escape is preferable in an mma setting. Guard retention for sport is more sporty. You can not maintain elbow knee connection when someone is punching you.

 

When someone gets around your legs and to your side mma they are generally either looking to pin and control you, which is not that bad, or they are looking for space to be striking. When they remain up and leave space to strike it is no different than when you created the space working your own shrimp escape.

 

And as far as the guard retention goes. If a guy gets an angle outside of your legs to pass, and is close enough to hit you while also blocking your bottom leg from coming in to retain guard., YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS NOT THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND SPACE BETWEEN YOUR ELBOW AND KNEE OR KNEE AND CHEST AND BE ABLE TO PIN YOU. YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS THAT HE WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE. Many guys in mma will not look for a pin but will look to hover over the side and drop bombs. If you don't believe me then watch Yoel Romero or Henry Cejudo fight, and many others, they hover and drop bombs. When they get to your side and are on their knees striking you do not maintain elbow knee connection and worry about them finding a way inside to pin you. Ideally you keep them in front of your legs but if they get around your legs then you shrimp and either re-gaurd or get to your knees. Gongoa is good too in some situations but you need to Gongoa and clinch immediately or Gongoa to a head and arm trap (triangle) where you have a little more control. 

Edited: 9/28/20 1:07 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9199

In mma or self defense, when someone gets around to the side to a hovering position like what is shown in the still image of the posted video, arm position is very important also. Your top arm is covering to protact against a strike. It covers in a way to block the strike but also gives you the opportunity to dig for the underhook elbow first if they choose to go for the pin. Your bottom arm covers your hard also to protect against strikes but also protects against the crossface if they are looking to pin you. While you are covering you shrimp to create more space where you can re-guard or go to your knees. 

 

 

As pointed out many times mma is a different game than sport bjj. While they use similar techniques there are still some important differences. 

9/28/20 12:48 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 789
Calhoon -
blabbermouth -

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!

Yes hip escape is preferable in an mma setting. Guard retention for sport is more sporty. You can not maintain elbow knee connection when someone is punching you.

 

In mma guys are either pinning which is not that bad or creating enough space to be striking. When they create space it is no different than when you created the space working your own shrimp escape.

 

And as far as the guard retention goes. If a guy gets an angle outside of your legs to pass, and then gets close enough to hit you and block the leg from coming in to retain guard., YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS NOT THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND SPACE BETWEEN YOUR ELBOW AND KNEE AND BE ABLE TO PASS YOUR GUARD, YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS THAT HE WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE. Many guys in mma will not look for a pin but will look to hover over the side and drop bombs. If you don't believe me the watch Yoel Romero fight, Henry Cejudo, many others, they hover and drop bombs. When they get to your side and are on their knees striking you do not maintain elbow knee connection and worry about them finding a way inside to pin you. Ideally you keep them in front of your legs but if they get around you shrimp and re-gaurd or get to your knees. Gongoa is good too in situations but you need to Gongoa and clinch immediately or Gongoa to a head and arm trap (triangle) where you have a little more control. 

What's the Gongoa? the only thing I can find online is behind a paywall at Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu.

Edited: 9/28/20 12:55 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9203
blabbermouth -
Calhoon -
blabbermouth -

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!

Yes hip escape is preferable in an mma setting. Guard retention for sport is more sporty. You can not maintain elbow knee connection when someone is punching you.

 

In mma guys are either pinning which is not that bad or creating enough space to be striking. When they create space it is no different than when you created the space working your own shrimp escape.

 

And as far as the guard retention goes. If a guy gets an angle outside of your legs to pass, and then gets close enough to hit you and block the leg from coming in to retain guard., YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS NOT THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND SPACE BETWEEN YOUR ELBOW AND KNEE AND BE ABLE TO PASS YOUR GUARD, YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS THAT HE WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE. Many guys in mma will not look for a pin but will look to hover over the side and drop bombs. If you don't believe me the watch Yoel Romero fight, Henry Cejudo, many others, they hover and drop bombs. When they get to your side and are on their knees striking you do not maintain elbow knee connection and worry about them finding a way inside to pin you. Ideally you keep them in front of your legs but if they get around you shrimp and re-gaurd or get to your knees. Gongoa is good too in situations but you need to Gongoa and clinch immediately or Gongoa to a head and arm trap (triangle) where you have a little more control. 

What's the Gongoa? the only thing I can find online is behind a paywall at Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu.

Facing away shoulder roll re-guard. Lachlan showed it in his video.

 

I said earlier that you need to clinch or triangle after executing but if there is space you can also push them away after regaining gurad. It depends on the energy but it is a great technique for guard recovery in mma also. That's the main point.

9/28/20 1:35 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 7479
Calhoon - 
blabbermouth -
Calhoon -
blabbermouth -

Hmmn, I've spent my entire BJJ journey getting killed whenever I tried to hip escape just like this. Always assumed I was doing something wrong and couldn't figure out what.

 

I wonder why the old BJJ guys preferred hip escapes. Are they advantageous in a BJJ / MMA setting?

 

Also, this explanation should have been on Xande's diamond DVDs. Good stuff, Lachlan!

Yes hip escape is preferable in an mma setting. Guard retention for sport is more sporty. You can not maintain elbow knee connection when someone is punching you.

 

In mma guys are either pinning which is not that bad or creating enough space to be striking. When they create space it is no different than when you created the space working your own shrimp escape.

 

And as far as the guard retention goes. If a guy gets an angle outside of your legs to pass, and then gets close enough to hit you and block the leg from coming in to retain guard., YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS NOT THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND SPACE BETWEEN YOUR ELBOW AND KNEE AND BE ABLE TO PASS YOUR GUARD, YOUR PRIMARY THREAT IS THAT HE WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE. Many guys in mma will not look for a pin but will look to hover over the side and drop bombs. If you don't believe me the watch Yoel Romero fight, Henry Cejudo, many others, they hover and drop bombs. When they get to your side and are on their knees striking you do not maintain elbow knee connection and worry about them finding a way inside to pin you. Ideally you keep them in front of your legs but if they get around you shrimp and re-gaurd or get to your knees. Gongoa is good too in situations but you need to Gongoa and clinch immediately or Gongoa to a head and arm trap (triangle) where you have a little more control. 

What's the Gongoa? the only thing I can find online is behind a paywall at Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu.

Facing away shoulder roll re-guard. Lachlan showed it in his video.

 

I said earlier that you need to clinch or triangle after executing but if there is space you can also push them away after regaining gurad. It depends on the energy but it is a great technique for guard recovery in mma also. That's the main point.


good posts
Edited: 9/28/20 2:10 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9205

Thanks meatgrinder. I just wanted to point out that the sports are different. Here is another video that show how they are different. In the bottom video he teaches to frame the hip. I see this a lot in sport but in mma you can't do this. 

 

I have no doubt that the video Lachlan produced is a great video though. He is an incredible grappler and he puts a lot of thought into what he teaches. If you are looking for guard retention for sport this material looks awesome, I just hate when people say things like __________'s jiu-jitsu sucks compared to the new school bjj. _______ likely just prefers not to use some of the "new school" techniques that could develop bad habits for a real fight. 

28 days ago
7/6/06
Posts: 490

You can do the "high pummel" while maintaining your defensive frames and stepping on their shoulder prevents hard shots much more effectively then just using your hands to block them. Also depending on rulest/position you can use the pummeling leg to kick your opponent in the face.

 

Agree that hip framing like in the John Thomas video is a less good idea when strikes are coming down, though.

28 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 987
PointyShinyBurn -

You can do the "high pummel" while maintaining your defensive frames and stepping on their shoulder prevents hard shots much more effectively then just using your hands to block them. Also depending on rulest/position you can use the pummeling leg to kick your opponent in the face.

 

Agree that hip framing like in the John Thomas video is a less good idea when strikes are coming down, though.

There's a time and place. If someone is posturing and striking, it is a bad idea and you will take a hard and potentially knockout blow

 

However, if you opponent is actively trying to hold you down following a takedown or just really focused on grappling at the moment to control your hips, it's a great technique

In sport BJJ, passer on top has no incentive to just posture and back off to make space, whereas in MMA it is reuqired to do so to create space to hit a grounded opponent hard. Just need to have good instincts and decision making

28 days ago
7/6/06
Posts: 491
mideastgrappler -
PointyShinyBurn -

You can do the "high pummel" while maintaining your defensive frames and stepping on their shoulder prevents hard shots much more effectively then just using your hands to block them. Also depending on rulest/position you can use the pummeling leg to kick your opponent in the face.

 

Agree that hip framing like in the John Thomas video is a less good idea when strikes are coming down, though.

There's a time and place. If someone is posturing and striking, it is a bad idea and you will take a hard and potentially knockout blow

 

However, if you opponent is actively trying to hold you down following a takedown or just really focused on grappling at the moment to control your hips, it's a great technique

In sport BJJ, passer on top has no incentive to just posture and back off to make space, whereas in MMA it is reuqired to do so to create space to hit a grounded opponent hard. Just need to have good instincts and decision making

Yeah, that makes sense, I was thinking of it more as a reponse to the torreando position he shows there where your opponent is about to 'Fedor pass' into an overhand right.

 

Though, thinking about it now, maybe if you stand on your shoulders a bit more and chamber an upkick it could be viable. Something to play with if I'm ever actually on a mat again.

28 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 20506
"As pointed out many times mma is a different game than sport bjj. While they use similar techniques there are still some important differences."

This is true, but we need to try to discourage and prevent this schism between the two as much as possible.