David Jacobs' BJJGround Will John Danaher go down in history?

9/16/20 12:43 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9130

Will he go down as a big part in the history of Jiu-Jitsu?

 

If I follow history correctly:

1) jiu-jitsu was an art that Samaria used for fighting purposes that involved ground fighting but also strikes, swords and other weapons etc.

 

2) Times changed and jiu-jitsu almost died out. A few ryu's were still in tact but they were teaching to common citizens and challenge matches were the competitions. I gather it was like vale tudo but I could be wrong.

3) Kano wanted to revive the art and he created a system that took from different ryu's and he created a sport to eliminate the "violence" if you will and make it more sportive. He also changed the name to Judo in an attempt to get away from the "thug like" reputation that jiu-jitsu practioners has attached to them. Kano's Judo went thru different stages where ground fighting was a focus and then ultimately standing became more of the focus because Kano thought it to be more exciting. Kano spread his art around the world and Judo became very popular.

 

4) Judo/Jiu-Jitsu hits Brazil. The ground fighting aspect was much more the focus in Brazil. Helio became famous for his guard in different competitions. Schools opened up that focused mainly on the ground aspects of jiu-jitsu. The name jiu-jitsu was the preferred name and there became a sport called jiu-jitsu and perception was Judo is more stand up while Jiu-jitsu is more ground.

 

 

Now are we living in a time where jiu-jitsu is being changed once again and Danaher is influencing the way jiu-jitsu is played. He seems to be taking jiu-jitsu to another level by adding leg locks and takedowns to the sport. 

 

Will he go down in history as changing jiu-jitsu and be included in the history 100 years from now?

 

 

 

One more thought, Helio also cemented his place in history when Royce dominated the early UFC's.

 

To solidify your place in history I think you need to be recognized as being the man that changed something. Kano changed the image and took out a lot of the killing techniques and created a sport. Helio changed the sport to be more about ground and he also was involved in changing America's perception of what fighting is. Up until the UFC America was thinking fighting was standing and striking. And now Danaher seems to be changing jiu-jitsu, nogi has became more popular, leg locks are better than ever, and if Danaher is able to succeed in his attempt to make stand-up a bigger aspect of jiu-jitsu sport then he might go down in history as a major influence. What do you think? 

Edited: 9/16/20 12:50 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17287

I like John, but he aside from Gordon, he doesn't have another no gi World Champion in his stable- and he's been teaching since 2000.

I agree that the leg lock stuff is amazing, but some people have even mentioned that Eddie Cummings had an equal part (if not more) in developing it at Renzo's- and even with the leg locks, as already mentioned, only Gordon has been world champ.

 

Heck, you could argue that Andre has been a more successful no gi coach than John- he's taught for less time, and has had more ADCC champs (I'm not including Fabio Gurgel who has had more, but has been teaching longer)

9/16/20 2:43 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 2204

It's great that Danaher is advocating for takedowns in BJJ. With that said, takedowns have been a part of BJJ history much longer then they have not been. Prior to the 1990's guard pulling was not that common, and the double guard pull even less so. Granted, the takedown game of BJJer's was not on par with their judo or wrestling peers, but that doesn't mean that takedowns were missing from the art. In fact, the Carlson Gracie Team mentality was takedown, pass guard, and submit.   

9/16/20 4:35 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 9996

I like Danaher’s stuff. But Lol @ added takedowns and leglocks. 

Edited: 9/16/20 4:58 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39218
1) The Samurai used "jujutstu" in the same way the U.S. Army uses "Boxing". Boxing is very small part of what the army does. It's there as a small component of the Combatives system they teach. But saying the Samurai used "jujutsu" is like saying the U.S, Army fights with boxing.

2) Times changed and the Samurai were no longer very important in Japanese society. A lot of NEW styles cropped up that taught no --or very limited-- weapon use. Styles tended to became more about mastering ONE aspect of fighting, because they were no longer actual battlefield arts.

3) yeah.

4) Judo hit Brazil. Helio was the youngest and last of the Gracies Brothers to fight. All 5 brothers did BJJ. The best fighter in the Gracie family, from all accounts, was George Gracie. There was bad blood between the brothers and the ones who didn't have boys and a lineage that survives, were basically erased from BJJ history.

There have been COUNTLESS influences on BJJ. Generations have dedicated their entire lives to BJJ and made changes that spread through the art, because they worked. Few of those names are remembered. These days, Danaher is one of those guys. But he doesn't deserve credit for adding takedowns to BJJ. As mentioned above, that's just silly. Nor did he "add" leglocks. Lots of people added leglocks, most notably the teams from San Paulo and the non-Gracie lineages. That is why the Gracies, at first didn't like them and thought they were cheap. Danaher added a good, modern leglock game and helped re-popularize in BJJ. But Leglocks, like a lot of things in BJJ, have always been cyclical IME.
9/16/20 4:54 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9131
Fast Pitch -

I like Danaher’s stuff. But Lol @ added takedowns and leglocks. 

I think this is the problem with these history discussions. I 100% think Danaher death squad changed the game when it comes to jiu-jitsu players needing leglocks and in time I think people will be discussing leglocks and how bjj changed when DDS popularized them and someone will say leglocks were around before Danaher. Yes they were but still it was Danaher and his crew that changed the game and will very likely be recognized for it. 

9/16/20 5:00 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13546
Yeah, Danaher is great, but he likes to say stuff like "they said leglocks don't work", and whatever else is an absolute statement pertaining to "BJJ", it's just not true lol, but a lot of instuctors do that, its just not a Danaher thing

You will see videos from others and say, "you learned to open closed guard the wrong way, EVERYONE teaches it this way...", these are not factual statements, just because some may teach it that way pf whatever, BJJ instructors love to paint BJJ with a broad brush and show they have the better way

I posted a clip a while ago and Frank Shamrock beat Dan Henderson in Contenders with a "modern" leg lock game, he inverted, switched legs and got an outside heel hook

Leg locks have always been a big part of ADCC and MMA and have "worked", Lister kneebarred Saulo in the early 2000s, Ken Shamrock heel hooked Pat Smith in UFC 1 and on and on
9/16/20 5:04 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13547
Lister heel hooked his way to an ADCC title in 2011, Danaher even says it was Lister who said "why would you ignore 50% of the human body" or whatever

Danaher and DDS made a big impact, but its a little overblown at this point
Edited: 9/16/20 5:11 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39219
I think a lot depends how long you have done BJJ...

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask, say, a Coral or Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar --it used to be popular-- but we did it more like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Then someone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.
9/16/20 5:10 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13548
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before
9/16/20 5:22 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9132
liquidrob -
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before

I have been in jiu-jitsu for a while and I am well aware of Lister but during his run he did not change the game and that to me is the difference. Now days everyone knows leglocks and that may indirectly be because of lister but without Danaher I would bet leg locks would not be where they are today. 

9/16/20 5:25 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13549
Calhoon - 
liquidrob -
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before

I have been in jiu-jitsu for a while and I am well aware of Lister but during his run he did not change the game and that to me is the difference. Now days everyone knows leglocks and that may indirectly be because of lister but without Danaher I would bet leg locks would not be where they are today. 


Without Lister saying "why would you ignore 50% of the human body?" there wouldn't be a Danaher leglock game most likely

9/16/20 5:30 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13550
At this point though, in BJJ history Danaher and DDS are/will be seen as pioneers most likely, I would agree, but alot of things came before that it just all came together for Danaher and DDS at the right time, sub only format, EBIs, Gordon being Gordon, social media, the instructional market, etc...

Like I said, I am a fan of what he does, but a lot of statements made by Danaher and new people saying the same things are somewhat overblown at this point
9/16/20 5:31 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9133
liquidrob -
Calhoon - 
liquidrob -
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before

I have been in jiu-jitsu for a while and I am well aware of Lister but during his run he did not change the game and that to me is the difference. Now days everyone knows leglocks and that may indirectly be because of lister but without Danaher I would bet leg locks would not be where they are today. 


Without Lister saying "why would you ignore 50% of the human body?" there wouldn't be a Danaher leglock game most likely

I get that. My point is Kano likely had influence from his teachers but Kano gets credit. Helio had influence but he gets credit. etc.

 

A lot of people have made an impact and influenced the art but only a select few get credit. They are the leaders, marketers, influences, whatever you want to call it. 

9/16/20 7:02 PM
10/25/05
Posts: 10646

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 

9/16/20 7:31 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 9997
Calhoon -
liquidrob -
Calhoon - 
liquidrob -
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before

I have been in jiu-jitsu for a while and I am well aware of Lister but during his run he did not change the game and that to me is the difference. Now days everyone knows leglocks and that may indirectly be because of lister but without Danaher I would bet leg locks would not be where they are today. 


Without Lister saying "why would you ignore 50% of the human body?" there wouldn't be a Danaher leglock game most likely

I get that. My point is Kano likely had influence from his teachers but Kano gets credit. Helio had influence but he gets credit. etc.

 

A lot of people have made an impact and influenced the art but only a select few get credit. They are the leaders, marketers, influences, whatever you want to call it. 

Yes Danaher will probably be mentioned as one of the great instructors. 

9/16/20 8:06 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39221
Fast Pitch - 
Calhoon -
liquidrob -
Calhoon - 
liquidrob -
shen - It depends how long you have done BJJ.

The longer you do it, the more you see it's kinda like a gigantic mary-go-round and every time it goes around, it changes a little bit. You're like, "oh yeah, I've seen this before, but it's a lttle different now." But to a newer person, it seems completely "revolutionary".

If you ask a Red Belt about something "new", they will often say, "oh well we used to do something similar -it used to be popular-- but we did it like THIS." They have seen things come and go and come and go again. Things get popular then unpopular. People forget about them. Somone revives it with a twist. It never ends.

We're all captives of our limited perspectives.

great point Shen, this comes from a lot of the new BJJ people, the instructional market has blown up with BJJFANATICS these last couple of years and Danaher is there biggest star right now, so a lot of new BJJ people are not aware what came before

I have been in jiu-jitsu for a while and I am well aware of Lister but during his run he did not change the game and that to me is the difference. Now days everyone knows leglocks and that may indirectly be because of lister but without Danaher I would bet leg locks would not be where they are today. 


Without Lister saying "why would you ignore 50% of the human body?" there wouldn't be a Danaher leglock game most likely

I get that. My point is Kano likely had influence from his teachers but Kano gets credit. Helio had influence but he gets credit. etc.

 

A lot of people have made an impact and influenced the art but only a select few get credit. They are the leaders, marketers, influences, whatever you want to call it. 

Yes Danaher will probably be mentioned as one of the great instructors. 


...at least for a While, but...

I was teachig a seminar in a little college town at a BJJ school and --I don't know how the topic came up-- but NO ONE in the room had ever heard of Mario Sperry. I was shocked. Then one guy said, "I think I heard the name". We went through it and it turns out he was actually thinking of Marcelo Garcia.

I was later recalling this story to a few students ---and most of them didn't know who Mario Sperry was, either.

But most of these people are younger. People know who is in the BJJ when THEY start. BJJ doesn't have a great memory.

9/16/20 8:32 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 13745
Shen's tales ring true. Everything i soming 'round again, and never practitioners who did not live through its North American history see things through a different lense and much of our "assumed" knowledge is not known by newer practitioners.
I meet newer people who practice who had never heard of Rickson Gracie, Machados, Saulo or Xande, things I think are common knowledge. The worst I have ever heard is someone who was with a Carlson Gracie affiliate but didn't know who Carlson Gracie was (he thought it was Rorion or Helio). I also know people who don't know Royce Gracie, which to me is mystifying.

Personally, the key difference with Danaher is the fact that social media and Internet are in full swing. He will be remembered as a good instructor, but probably in a decade or perhaps another 15 years, will probably not be known by the average practitioner.

All these trends have come around. Really I think one of the "forgotten" instructors in this regard is Roy Harris. He placed high value on Leg locks in a time where people were not interested and did extensive seminars on leg locks, when they were not the latest craze. He also popularized the idea of escapes being the foundation for beginning students when few werew interested, amongst other stuff.
Saulo's innovations were also interesting and changed how many of us thought of techniques. Even that is being forgotten now.
9/16/20 11:38 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17288

Most of the world champs at ADCC won without playing the leg game.

At the highest levels, their effectiveness is greatly diminished- you just need to respect them and not get caught up in a leg battle with them.

Tanquino, Matheus, JT Torres, all did not play any leg games with their opponents.

9/16/20 11:47 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 17289
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.

9/17/20 12:06 AM
2/15/14
Posts: 967
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.

Marcelo revolutioned BJJ in so many ways

1) X-Guard

2) arm drags

3) guillotines

4) single leg x

All at a time when nearly no one used these techniques untl Marcelo introduced them into a BJJ setting. People were using guillotines off of takedowns but nothing to the intricacy of Marcelo

 

John basically copied Marcelo's game after reseraching him for years, then stole Eddie Cumming's leg game, put them together and called it the "Danaher System"

 

He will go down in history as a good coach that produced some good guys, not someone who revolutioned the game

9/17/20 2:34 AM
9/26/07
Posts: 780

Interesting discussion. As mentioned above by Shen and others I think there is a habit in Bjj and martial arts in general to over estimate the impact of the current generation.

This is something that I've been thinking about recently because I don't think the same thing happens as much in other sports.

For example if we take a sport like soccer, most people who start playing it or following it also become aware of all the great teams and players from the past and from previous generations.

This is usually because they are introduced to the sport by their parents, uncles, older siblings etc. also people who play soccer usually continue to watch and follow the sport even after they are no longer playing the game. 

in contrast the majority of Bjjers start training with very little idea of what the sport is or even where it came from. They train hard for three years and become fanatical about whoever is the current big names of the day then they get injured, quit training and lose interest in the sport. 

this means that there usually isn't the same legacy effect as in other sports. Eg the vast majority of current white and blue belts probably don't know who Rickson is these days, which would've been unimaginable when I first started training 

Edited: 9/17/20 2:37 AM
3/20/14
Posts: 958

He will go down in history as the narrator everyone motions their hands to in a "Come on with it now bloke, haven't got all day" sort of manner.

9/17/20 11:35 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 9999
mideastgrappler -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.

Marcelo revolutioned BJJ in so many ways

1) X-Guard

2) arm drags

3) guillotines

4) single leg x

All at a time when nearly no one used these techniques untl Marcelo introduced them into a BJJ setting. People were using guillotines off of takedowns but nothing to the intricacy of Marcelo

 

John basically copied Marcelo's game after reseraching him for years, then stole Eddie Cumming's leg game, put them together and called it the "Danaher System"

 

He will go down in history as a good coach that produced some good guys, not someone who revolutioned the game

Don’t forget North/South choke. 

9/17/20 11:47 AM
10/25/05
Posts: 10649
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.

You can definitely make an argument for Marcelo, but you cannot make that same argument for Andre or Atos imo.