David Jacobs' BJJGround Will John Danaher go down in history?

9/17/20 12:09 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13551
Danaher also will be remembered because he is just a coach, you dont really get that in BJJ compared to other sports, the top Coaches in other sports barely played or never even made the pros

You don't see that in BJJ, it's very very rare

Danaher finally shows the BJJ world that you can be a coach for high level competitors without ever really competing

It will be interesting moving forward if more guys like Danaher pop up with great competitors, but it will be rare because in BJJ the top guys run schools, teach, put out instructionals, etc... you can't roll up to a Cheifs practice and play catch with Patrick Mahomes LOL

that's what makes BJJ great though, the mixing of top line competitors and the dude in a cubicle all day
..
9/17/20 12:17 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13553
Danaher strictly being a coach probably gives his crew an advantage the majority of the time also, he has one job, he doesnt even run the school, he has one focus for the most part

Compared to Galvao, Keenan, etc...these guys are running gyms, worrying about there own training, coaching, doing seminars, etc...

So when you go against Gordon, he is just focused on competiting, Danaher coaching, its a more natural sports progression, and then throw in juat training specifically for No Gi, its a lot of advantages over the traditional BJJ setup of a team
Edited: 9/18/20 1:34 AM
2/15/14
Posts: 969
Animal Mother -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.
 

You can definitely make an argument for Marcelo, but you cannot make that same argument for Andre or Atos imo. 

Marcelo hands on goes down in history as making the biggest revolutions in the sport

 

Andre & Atos come to a close second by revolutionizing the berimbolo, 50/50, and leg drag game. However, Leo Vieira/Terere mainly started the leg drag revolution, and the berimbolo, 50/50 game was mostly introduced by Bruno Frazatto, and then Galvao and the rest innovated the crab ride/back attacking game. Watch how the Atos guys take the back in recent competition and it is by far an improved version of what we saw just 2-3 years ago. I did not point out Rafa as a pioneer of the berimbolo & 50/50 as he made it popular in competition, but Bruno Frazatto paved the way for him with those techniques and Rafa will admit to it.  However, he took the game further and added his own innovations into it that he should get credit for it today.  But, Atos did this as a team and brought things along slowly through the years. Funny thing is the Bruno Frazatto vs Cobrinha rivalry which turned into the Rafa Mendes vs Cobrinha rivalry paved the way for a lot of the modern game you see nowadays in terms of strategy and tactics that required these techniques.

 

Marcelo still outdoes them in this department. Don't even get me started on Marcelo and his total BJJ revolution with his seatbelt. Nobody, I mean nobody refined the back game like Marcelo introducing the seatbelt + handfighting in competiton to setup the RNC. We know the seatbelt from the back as a fundamental technique/position today, but back in pre-2003 era, that was not the case. In fact the seatbelt didn't catch on until almost 2007/2008 as social media and youtube were not around to contribute to the rapid spread in technique information. Marcelo popularized the seatbelt in his use of it and tuaght it as a superior control & attack position. Take it for granted today, but I shit you not in the era of 2004 and prior years, the priamry form of back control taught was double unders, which meant the RNC was more than a step away due to the hand positioning. ANd this was quite universal, as quality black belts like Mario SPerry and ROger Gracie were still teaching this stuff during that time.

 

Marcelo wasw the first to vocally pronounce the seatbelt as superior control and proved it in comeptiton against the best right off the bat. Others studied his matches and intensely and mirrored him and taught their students the same. Marc Laimon was one of the frist to follow suit and taught Marcelo's seatbelt system in seminars as he traveled.

 

Now explain to me how in any way does Danaher totally ripping off Marcelo's (butterfly+1legX+arm drag+back attacks+front headlock) game and adding Eddie's leglocks to call a system his own >>>> Marcelo's or Atos's contrubutions to the grappling world.    

 

For anyone saying Gordan would defeat Marcelo today, they're probably right. And that's no shame to Marcelo, who peaked in his prime around 2003-2008, making his debut nearly 17 years before Gordan reached his prime. I sure damn hope Gordan would defeat Marcelo if they ever faced off in the near future because if he didn't, that would be sad because that means the sport and it's competitors didn't evolve and improve over time using the previous generation's achievements and discoveries 

Edited: 9/18/20 10:03 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9139
mideastgrappler -
Animal Mother -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.
 

You can definitely make an argument for Marcelo, but you cannot make that same argument for Andre or Atos imo. 

Marcelo hands on goes down in history as making the biggest revolutions in the sport

 

Andre & Atos come to a close second by revolutionizing the berimbolo, 50/50, and leg drag game. However, Leo Vieira/Terere mainly started the leg drag revolution, and the berimbolo, 50/50 game was mostly introduced by Bruno Frazatto, and then Galvao and the rest innovated the crab ride/back attacking game. Watch how the Atos guys take the back in recent competition and it is by far an improved version of what we saw just 2-3 years ago. I did not point out Rafa as a pioneer of the berimbolo & 50/50 as he made it popular in competition, but Bruno Frazatto paved the way for him with those techniques and Rafa will admit to it.  However, he took the game further and added his own innovations into it that he should get credit for it today.  But, Atos did this as a team and brought things along slowly through the years. Funny thing is the Bruno Frazatto vs Cobrinha rivalry which turned into the Rafa Mendes vs Cobrinha rivalry paved the way for a lot of the modern game you see nowadays in terms of strategy and tactics that required these techniques.

 

Marcelo still outdoes them in this department. Don't even get me started on Marcelo and his total BJJ revolution with his seatbelt. Nobody, I mean nobody refined the back game like Marcelo introducing the seatbelt + handfighting in competiton to setup the RNC. We know the seatbelt from the back as a fundamental technique/position today, but back in pre-2003 era, that was not the case. In fact the seatbelt didn't catch on until almost 2007/2008 as social media and youtube were not around to contribute to the rapid spread in technique information. Marcelo popularized the seatbelt in his use of it and tuaght it as a superior control & attack position. Take it for granted today, but I shit you not in the era of 2004 and prior years, the priamry form of back control taught was double unders, which meant the RNC was more than a step away due to the hand positioning. ANd this was quite universal, as quality black belts like Mario SPerry and ROger Gracie were still teaching this stuff during that time.

 

Marcelo wasw the first to vocally pronounce the seatbelt as superior control and proved it in comeptiton against the best right off the bat. Others studied his matches and intensely and mirrored him and taught their students the same. Marc Laimon was one of the frist to follow suit and taught Marcelo's seatbelt system in seminars as he traveled.

 

Now explain to me how in any way does Danaher totally ripping off Marcelo's (butterfly+1legX+arm drag+back attacks+front headlock) game and adding Eddie's leglocks to call a system his own >>>> Marcelo's or Atos's contrubutions to the grappling world.    

 

For anyone saying Gordan would defeat Marcelo today, they're probably right. And that's no shame to Marcelo, who peaked in his prime around 2003-2008, making his debut nearly 17 years before Gordan reached his prime. I sure damn hope Gordan would defeat Marcelo if they ever faced off in the near future because if he didn't, that would be sad because that means the sport and it's competitors didn't evolve and improve over time using the previous generation's achievements and discoveries 

This is an excellent post but here is what I am saying. 

 

What did Kano invent?

 

I am quite certain that there was a Judo enthusiast who lived back in those times who could break down the contributions that were made back then to Judo/Jiu-Jitsu similarly to what you have done here with today's contributers, but I would guess that nobody today knows about half the guys he could name. Yet Kano went down in the history books. Why? Some people will go down in history but others won't. 

 

 

I am sure that Kimura for example was a better Judoka and could probably break down a position much better than Kano could but Kano is the one who most recognize as the Judo master while Kimura was his student. 

 

I'm just saying. Jiu-jitsu has been around for a long time with lots of competitors but some go down in history and others don't. They all deserve to be recognized but out of those only some get the recognition that they deserve. 

 

I am in no way trying to knock the guys like Kano or the Gracies, etc either. They were and are great leaders who obviously knew Jiu-Jitsu and contributed a lot but they had that something that made them stand the test of time when it comes to people discussing the history 100 or so years later. 

 

Marcello I am sure will be one that will be remembered also. 

9/18/20 9:17 AM
6/2/05
Posts: 745

This discussion reminds me of the Mout Rushmore question from Ryan Ford’s Grappling Central podcast. Tune into that by the way, it’s good.

 

Do I think Danaher will be remembered in jiu-jitsu history similar to some of the Gracie family members? Yes. Regardless of some of the well put points above, he will. Especially for the leg lock game. I can’t speak to the Eddie vs John rumors about the leg lock system, but I think history will remember it as a John thing. I think this will be what the legacy will largely be based off. Similar for Marcelo, I think his legacy will be a function of back control and x guard. Even though other people had been playing that game before him.

 

As for a Mount Rushmore concept, I still don’t seem them up there. Only room for four and I think that room is reserved for people who did more for jiu-jitsu that just evolution of technique and tactics.

Edited: 9/18/20 11:24 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9143
GB Dave Jr -

This discussion reminds me of the Mout Rushmore question from Ryan Ford’s Grappling Central podcast. Tune into that by the way, it’s good.

 

Do I think Danaher will be remembered in jiu-jitsu history similar to some of the Gracie family members? Yes. Regardless of some of the well put points above, he will. Especially for the leg lock game. I can’t speak to the Eddie vs John rumors about the leg lock system, but I think history will remember it as a John thing. I think this will be what the legacy will largely be based off. Similar for Marcelo, I think his legacy will be a function of back control and x guard. Even though other people had been playing that game before him.

 

As for a Mount Rushmore concept, I still don’t seem them up there. Only room for four and I think that room is reserved for people who did more for jiu-jitsu that just evolution of technique and tactics.

I agree with you on the evolution of techniques not being as big a deal but a change in tactics is big imo.

 

I think the leg lock addition is a big change in tactics and therefore will be looked at as an important change. I know leg locks have came in and out of fashion in jiu-jitsu but I think they will be recognized as a need to know from now on, and that is major imo. Marcello I think will be remembered mainly for him being an outstanding competitor and an overall great person. Did I also mention that he was an oustanding competitor? Ok just checking. He did in fact improve jiu-jitsu a lot but at the end of the day his x-guard is still guard, his seat belt is still just back control. In other words I recognize the improvements, and they were big improvements, but when it comes to history I think they will not be looked at as major game changers but simply great additions which is different imo. Plus he was an outstanding competitor and a great person in case I haven't mentioned that.

Edited: 9/18/20 9:48 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9144

And I think the change in tactics is big as long as it can withstand the test of time. 

 

In other words grabbing lapels and tieing them around legs is a change in tactics but will it stand the test of time?

 

Maybe, I don't know. If it remains a great way to play guard in sport then maybe it will  or maybe there will come a time when the sport says enough with this, we need our sport to at least resemble a real fight. Who knows? But I think if it becomes easy to defend against at all then I predict people will quit using it and it will be looked back upon in history as a silly phase jiu-jitsu went thru, if it is remembered at all.

9/18/20 9:55 AM
12/1/00
Posts: 17290

Calhoon- I still contend that at the highest levels, the leg lock game hasn't changed the game that much. Even at the last ADCC's the majority of the men's champions did not use leg attacks at all.

You just need to be smart and not play a leg lock battle with a leg lock specialist.

In the past, people did not believe that the DDS squad was that much better at the legs than they were. So they would ignorantly stay on their backs attacking legs with them- and would fail miserably. This is the same thing that happened with the champs that faced Giles- they had no respect for his leg game.

If you respect the leg game, and refuse to engage a battle with it, the data has shown you can still win without even needing to use it. Heck, Mathues won ADCC, and MG's in NYC doesn't even teach leg attacks at all (they do teach leg defense, but it is not a huge focus).

Now, at the lower levels- yes, the fascination with leg locks has changed the game a bit. IMO, that's because people would rather get the quick tap, than learn the harder skill of passing a good guard. I suppose at that level, the DDS crew has made a big impact.

Edited: 9/18/20 10:43 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9145
kying418 - Calhoon- I still contend that at the highest levels, the leg lock game hasn't changed the game that much. Even at the last ADCC's the majority of the men's champions did not use leg attacks at all.

You just need to be smart and not play a leg lock battle with a leg lock specialist.

In the past, people did not believe that the DDS squad was that much better at the legs than they were. So they would ignorantly stay on their backs attacking legs with them- and would fail miserably. This is the same thing that happened with the champs that faced Giles- they had no respect for his leg game.

If you respect the leg game, and refuse to engage a battle with it, the data has shown you can still win without even needing to use it. Heck, Mathues won ADCC, and MG's in NYC doesn't even teach leg attacks at all (they do teach leg defense, but it is not a huge focus).

Now, at the lower levels- yes, the fascination with leg locks has changed the game a bit. IMO, that's because people would rather get the quick tap, than learn the harder skill of passing a good guard. I suppose at that level, the DDS crew has made a big impact.

I respectfully disagree.

 

I see it like this. The game is percieved as an upper body and lower body submission game now. That is major. Sure leg locks have been around but the game was considered an upper body submission game in all reality.

 

 

To me it's also like this. The game has always had top and bottom positions, I am talking about the game back in the early days in Brazil when it moved here from Japan. But in reality at the time top was considered to be offensive and bottom was defensive. The perception was changed though and bottom position became an attacking position. That was a major change. The game to this day is able to be played offensively from both top and bottom. Now you could say the guard is not that big of a deal because some mma fighters dont even study highly developed guard games and yet they just learn defense and are able to win the UFC. That is simililarto what you are saying with Craig Jones vs Mathaus and it would be true but they still learned the defense and the UFC fighter still knows that the guard is a part of the game just like Mathaus now understands that leg locks are a part of the game, so  much so that in your own words he was facing a leg lock specialist.. Leg locks are now considered a part of the game and will be from now on imo. 

 

 

9/18/20 11:18 AM
6/2/05
Posts: 747

That’s an interesting point and I see where you are coming from. I think Danaher will be up there on the historical reference chart for sure, due to the change in tactics of attacking the legs. Not sure if you have read Mastering Jujitsu lately (or at all) but interestingly is holds up pretty well with the modern day jiu-jitsu game. Even though it was written some time ago, by John.

 

I really like this historical reference section, and I think it would shed some light on this conversation. The samurais were phased out and jiu-jitsu became sort of a clan type system. Everyone was competing against each other, and at the time, the best way to do that was to develop different fighting tactics. Some schools would stand out for a while, but then get phased out by other schools who developed different tactics to get ahead. The process continues like that for some time. Until Kano came in with radically different thinking and arguably changed the face and direction of this martial art.

 

Give that section a read again, its quite fascinating. Thanks for the great discussion by the way, really enjoyed reading it!

Edited: 9/18/20 11:39 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9146
GB Dave Jr -

That’s an interesting point and I see where you are coming from. I think Danaher will be up there on the historical reference chart for sure, due to the change in tactics of attacking the legs. Not sure if you have read Mastering Jujitsu lately (or at all) but interestingly is holds up pretty well with the modern day jiu-jitsu game. Even though it was written some time ago, by John.

 

I really like this historical reference section, and I think it would shed some light on this conversation. The samurais were phased out and jiu-jitsu became sort of a clan type system. Everyone was competing against each other, and at the time, the best way to do that was to develop different fighting tactics. Some schools would stand out for a while, but then get phased out by other schools who developed different tactics to get ahead. The process continues like that for some time. Until Kano came in with radically different thinking and arguably changed the face and direction of this martial art.

 

Give that section a read again, its quite fascinating. Thanks for the great discussion by the way, really enjoyed reading it!

That is interesting and I have that book and will read it again. 

 

I am simply interested in the history and read and peice it together in a way that makes sense to me. For example when Shen says Japanese Jiu-jitsu was like the army and ground fighting is like boxing in the army. I respect his knowledge and dont want to sound like I am argueing but in my mind I am thinking ok but who was the great boxer that came out of the Army and taught Kano boxing? What I mean is it makes sense to me that there were probably Japanese grapplers who studied the art and taught Kano and Kano was able to put it into a system and teach it and also create a sport out of it and spread the sport around the world. I will definitely read Danahers book again. 

 

 

Another problem I have is that if my thoughts and ideas were an image, what I picture in my head is as clear to me as 8k technology then I put them into words and they look to me like an image that has been blurred out. I never can word what I am trying to say correctly.

9/18/20 11:42 AM
6/2/05
Posts: 748

Haha, I too suffer with that.

9/18/20 12:38 PM
10/28/08
Posts: 2000

As BJJ becomes further and further divorced from Vale Tudo, nobody will will care about it's history.  

9/18/20 1:30 PM
9/9/02
Posts: 13555
He will have staying power because of his instructionals, besides obviously making money I think he likes putting out his system and philosophies, basically having all his work cataloged and will keep making more and more
9/18/20 8:07 PM
10/25/05
Posts: 10653
mideastgrappler -
Animal Mother -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.
 

You can definitely make an argument for Marcelo, but you cannot make that same argument for Andre or Atos imo. 

Marcelo hands on goes down in history as making the biggest revolutions in the sport

 

Andre & Atos come to a close second by revolutionizing the berimbolo, 50/50, and leg drag game. However, Leo Vieira/Terere mainly started the leg drag revolution, and the berimbolo, 50/50 game was mostly introduced by Bruno Frazatto, and then Galvao and the rest innovated the crab ride/back attacking game. Watch how the Atos guys take the back in recent competition and it is by far an improved version of what we saw just 2-3 years ago. I did not point out Rafa as a pioneer of the berimbolo & 50/50 as he made it popular in competition, but Bruno Frazatto paved the way for him with those techniques and Rafa will admit to it.  However, he took the game further and added his own innovations into it that he should get credit for it today.  But, Atos did this as a team and brought things along slowly through the years. Funny thing is the Bruno Frazatto vs Cobrinha rivalry which turned into the Rafa Mendes vs Cobrinha rivalry paved the way for a lot of the modern game you see nowadays in terms of strategy and tactics that required these techniques.

 

Marcelo still outdoes them in this department. Don't even get me started on Marcelo and his total BJJ revolution with his seatbelt. Nobody, I mean nobody refined the back game like Marcelo introducing the seatbelt + handfighting in competiton to setup the RNC. We know the seatbelt from the back as a fundamental technique/position today, but back in pre-2003 era, that was not the case. In fact the seatbelt didn't catch on until almost 2007/2008 as social media and youtube were not around to contribute to the rapid spread in technique information. Marcelo popularized the seatbelt in his use of it and tuaght it as a superior control & attack position. Take it for granted today, but I shit you not in the era of 2004 and prior years, the priamry form of back control taught was double unders, which meant the RNC was more than a step away due to the hand positioning. ANd this was quite universal, as quality black belts like Mario SPerry and ROger Gracie were still teaching this stuff during that time.

 

Marcelo wasw the first to vocally pronounce the seatbelt as superior control and proved it in comeptiton against the best right off the bat. Others studied his matches and intensely and mirrored him and taught their students the same. Marc Laimon was one of the frist to follow suit and taught Marcelo's seatbelt system in seminars as he traveled.

 

Now explain to me how in any way does Danaher totally ripping off Marcelo's (butterfly+1legX+arm drag+back attacks+front headlock) game and adding Eddie's leglocks to call a system his own >>>> Marcelo's or Atos's contrubutions to the grappling world.    

 

For anyone saying Gordan would defeat Marcelo today, they're probably right. And that's no shame to Marcelo, who peaked in his prime around 2003-2008, making his debut nearly 17 years before Gordan reached his prime. I sure damn hope Gordan would defeat Marcelo if they ever faced off in the near future because if he didn't, that would be sad because that means the sport and it's competitors didn't evolve and improve over time using the previous generation's achievements and discoveries 

You don't sound salty at all. Lol. Because of Renzos, modern bjj has done a complete about face concerning leg locks. There is absolutely no denying that. Thats how. 

9/18/20 10:35 PM
6/2/05
Posts: 749

Agreed. I do think he will have a place in the history, just not sure how big it would be relative to others. 
 

This might be better for a separate thread, but I actually have two unpopular opinions on who else should go down in history for monumental impacts to jiu-jitsu: Carlos Gracie Jr and Rorion Gracie. The two of them, IMO, opened up the entire world to what we know as jiu-jitsu today. I know I have GB in my screen name, but I’m not a fan boy. Just use the screen name because the people that I know would recognize me. But, You can’t argue with the fact that Carlos Jr has brought jiu-jitsu to the entire world. Not just through GB, but through Gracie Mag and IBJJF (etc). People will have very strong feelings against this, but the spread of jiu-jitsu is undeniably related to these efforts. Similarly, as far as I know, the UFC was the brain child of Rorion. The UFC up ended the entire worlds understanding of martial arts, and introduced jiu-jitsu to the rest of the world. I know it was Royce that was out there, but likely any jiu-jitsu representative would have sufficed. It was Rorion who opened everyone’s eyes.

 

Sorry to distract from the thread, but I think it’s things like this that will stand the test of time. Anyone please feel free to chime in if I am incorrect (highly possible). It’s more than just evolution of tactics, but what you bring to the art. Similar to what Kano did, they opened the art to the world and made it possible to spread. 

9/19/20 7:33 PM
7/5/12
Posts: 2233
He does a great job with other people's students.
9/19/20 7:46 PM
2/5/06
Posts: 3373

Eddie Bravo. 

Edited: 9/19/20 8:25 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9152
tf1 -

Eddie Bravo. 

For sure he will go down in Jiu-Jitsu history.

 

He promoted no-gi, beat Royler, and has his own unique of jiu-jitsu that is going to be around for a long time.

Edited: 9/19/20 11:00 PM
9/12/06
Posts: 248

Apparently this app won't let you delete posts that your phone makes for you when you drop it :/

9/20/20 3:41 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4750

The saddle position pretty much in its entirety was covered by Scott sonnon well before lister even blew up the game with leglocks.  Danaher jiu-jitsu-tized it but supposedly depending who you ask it was Cummins who brought that part of the system into the blue basement.  

His whole back system is Marcelo.  A majority of Gordon’s game is Garcia-esque from the butt-start, butterfly, single-x, Xguard stuff to his finish from the back being paramount.  His passing is very similar as well if not more advanced.  

 

Marcelo has been far more influential to both ends of bjj than danaher’s talking talking talking. 

9/20/20 3:43 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4751
liquidrob - Yeah, Danaher is great, but he likes to say stuff like "they said leglocks don't work", and whatever else is an absolute statement pertaining to "BJJ", it's just not true lol, but a lot of instuctors do that, its just not a Danaher thing

You will see videos from others and say, "you learned to open closed guard the wrong way, EVERYONE teaches it this way...", these are not factual statements, just because some may teach it that way pf whatever, BJJ instructors love to paint BJJ with a broad brush and show they have the better way

I posted a clip a while ago and Frank Shamrock beat Dan Henderson in Contenders with a "modern" leg lock game, he inverted, switched legs and got an outside heel hook

Leg locks have always been a big part of ADCC and MMA and have "worked", Lister kneebarred Saulo in the early 2000s, Ken Shamrock heel hooked Pat Smith in UFC 1 and on and on

Even within bjj guys. Baret yoshida almost bent Gustavo dantas’s leg in half with a kneebar from top half in like ADCC 2001 givenor take a year. 

9/20/20 3:47 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4752
Fast Pitch -
mideastgrappler -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.

Marcelo revolutioned BJJ in so many ways

1) X-Guard

2) arm drags

3) guillotines

4) single leg x

All at a time when nearly no one used these techniques untl Marcelo introduced them into a BJJ setting. People were using guillotines off of takedowns but nothing to the intricacy of Marcelo

 

John basically copied Marcelo's game after reseraching him for years, then stole Eddie Cumming's leg game, put them together and called it the "Danaher System"

 

He will go down in history as a good coach that produced some good guys, not someone who revolutioned the game

Don’t forget North/South choke. 

Tito choked out sato with one in like 2000. Monson was using it before Marcelo really adopted it.  

9/20/20 3:51 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4753
mideastgrappler -
Animal Mother -
kying418 -
Animal Mother - 

John does not have as many champs, but there is no question the basement has had a bigger impact on bjj in the last decade than any other gym. 


It could be argued that Marcelo has had a bigger impact in the last decade- since a lot of the DDS guard work, grips, and back attacks initially came from him.

Additionally, in this decade- as a coach and competitor, Marcelo has won ADCC, coached/taught Matheus to ADCC win, and coached/taught Bernardo Faria to a world title and absolute title (gi), and Dominyka Obelenyte to a world title and absolute title (gi).

Andre and Atos has had similar achievements in bjj in the past decade (if not more achievements)- it can be argued that they have also made a bigger impact than the DDS squad.
 

You can definitely make an argument for Marcelo, but you cannot make that same argument for Andre or Atos imo. 

Marcelo hands on goes down in history as making the biggest revolutions in the sport

 

Andre & Atos come to a close second by revolutionizing the berimbolo, 50/50, and leg drag game. However, Leo Vieira/Terere mainly started the leg drag revolution, and the berimbolo, 50/50 game was mostly introduced by Bruno Frazatto, and then Galvao and the rest innovated the crab ride/back attacking game. Watch how the Atos guys take the back in recent competition and it is by far an improved version of what we saw just 2-3 years ago. I did not point out Rafa as a pioneer of the berimbolo & 50/50 as he made it popular in competition, but Bruno Frazatto paved the way for him with those techniques and Rafa will admit to it.  However, he took the game further and added his own innovations into it that he should get credit for it today.  But, Atos did this as a team and brought things along slowly through the years. Funny thing is the Bruno Frazatto vs Cobrinha rivalry which turned into the Rafa Mendes vs Cobrinha rivalry paved the way for a lot of the modern game you see nowadays in terms of strategy and tactics that required these techniques.

 

Marcelo still outdoes them in this department. Don't even get me started on Marcelo and his total BJJ revolution with his seatbelt. Nobody, I mean nobody refined the back game like Marcelo introducing the seatbelt + handfighting in competiton to setup the RNC. We know the seatbelt from the back as a fundamental technique/position today, but back in pre-2003 era, that was not the case. In fact the seatbelt didn't catch on until almost 2007/2008 as social media and youtube were not around to contribute to the rapid spread in technique information. Marcelo popularized the seatbelt in his use of it and tuaght it as a superior control & attack position. Take it for granted today, but I shit you not in the era of 2004 and prior years, the priamry form of back control taught was double unders, which meant the RNC was more than a step away due to the hand positioning. ANd this was quite universal, as quality black belts like Mario SPerry and ROger Gracie were still teaching this stuff during that time.

 

Marcelo wasw the first to vocally pronounce the seatbelt as superior control and proved it in comeptiton against the best right off the bat. Others studied his matches and intensely and mirrored him and taught their students the same. Marc Laimon was one of the frist to follow suit and taught Marcelo's seatbelt system in seminars as he traveled.

 

Now explain to me how in any way does Danaher totally ripping off Marcelo's (butterfly+1legX+arm drag+back attacks+front headlock) game and adding Eddie's leglocks to call a system his own >>>> Marcelo's or Atos's contrubutions to the grappling world.    

 

For anyone saying Gordan would defeat Marcelo today, they're probably right. And that's no shame to Marcelo, who peaked in his prime around 2003-2008, making his debut nearly 17 years before Gordan reached his prime. I sure damn hope Gordan would defeat Marcelo if they ever faced off in the near future because if he didn't, that would be sad because that means the sport and it's competitors didn't evolve and improve over time using the previous generation's achievements and discoveries 

That 

9/25/20 3:39 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 4584

What strikes me as the most revolutionary of John's history to date is that he still flies the Renzo flag.

He didn't start his own team.

He didn't fabricate a beef with Renzo.

They didn't have money issues (or at least such issues as would have prevented them from working together).

He still refers to Renzo as his instructor.

Compare that to every other successful instructor of a successful team out there.

John's an outlier.