David Jacobs' BJJGround counter to the float pass?

9/21/20 6:05 PM
7/28/02
Posts: 11806

guys my butterfly guard is getting destroyed by this move wtf can i do?

9/22/20 12:17 AM
2/21/11
Posts: 6637
Depends where they are floating to. Mount? Kneecut?

I am a huge float pass user and the key from my understanding (there may be other things too) is to stay upright, fight for and repummel/hip escape backwards for inside foot position, and in the worst case scenario, stop their head from being higher than yours if you fall to your back.


Not using a sticky butterfly hook (keeping it limp) also retards their ability to kick your leg backwards when they circle their instep behind their butt to hook your instep. (this is for the pass to mount).

If they use Vagner's version to switch to a kneecut then simply block the underhook when they try and drag your shin to the other side and enter the kneecut position. This is sometimes a problem for me, but moreso from RLDR and headquarters position, where I open my armpit/elbow and surrender the underhook.


Sometimes I can also elevate and frame their hips to hinder their movement and try to disrupt the pass, but this has limited success for me.



But the main defense for me is the first stuff I wrote.








Hope this helps.
9/22/20 11:21 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 19236

If you like deep half, you can go into it at around the 2:00 minute mark by bringing your right arm between his legs and at the same time pushing his left knee between your legs.

9/22/20 1:31 PM
12/26/02
Posts: 12186

I'm a long time butterfly float passer.  I love this approach because legs vs legs passing nullifies the primary advantage of the guard (having 4 arms in play vs 2 arms), and with that playing field equalized, gravity favors the top player.  

The fundamental idea at play is that the guard player is using the sweep to elevate one of the top player's hips to the point of turning them faceup.  The top player succeeds in passing by keeping the hip from being elevated and driving it facedown. This is a simplifcation but not an oversimplification - it is the critical path. 

Most importantly, the bottom player must begin with (and remain focused on) lifting pressure that turns the top player's hips - elevation without that turning pressure gives the top player even more opportunity to pass than nothing at all.  Secondary to this, the top player has to use the arms or other posting tools to keep the hips facedown. So to deal with this, the bottom player must address the posts as a means of finishing turning the hips over.  

The number one mistake I see is elevation without turning pressure.  The drive to turn his hips must be present and significant throughout.  

9/22/20 5:24 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 787
twinkletoesCT -

I'm a long time butterfly float passer.  I love this approach because legs vs legs passing nullifies the primary advantage of the guard (having 4 arms in play vs 2 arms), and with that playing field equalized, gravity favors the top player.  

The fundamental idea at play is that the guard player is using the sweep to elevate one of the top player's hips to the point of turning them faceup.  The top player succeeds in passing by keeping the hip from being elevated and driving it facedown. This is a simplifcation but not an oversimplification - it is the critical path. 

Most importantly, the bottom player must begin with (and remain focused on) lifting pressure that turns the top player's hips - elevation without that turning pressure gives the top player even more opportunity to pass than nothing at all.  Secondary to this, the top player has to use the arms or other posting tools to keep the hips facedown. So to deal with this, the bottom player must address the posts as a means of finishing turning the hips over.  

The number one mistake I see is elevation without turning pressure.  The drive to turn his hips must be present and significant throughout.  

"The fundamental idea at play is that the guard player is using the sweep to elevate one of the top player's hips to the point of turning them faceup. "

 

Has anyone put out a product, youtube video or article explaining the fundamental intent behind each position? Because I need that, very badly.

 

I may start a thread on this becuase you just rocked my fucking world.

9/22/20 10:32 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 7475
Even if you are not turning the hip, the elevation of the hips from butterfly presents a nice transition into X.

Having said that, my #1 rule of open guard is to never expose the inside of your thigh to your opponent in any way.. not by inside grip and especially not pinned to the mat which would be his goal with inside position.

a reasonable reaction would be to cup his knee with your right hand and shrimp to 1/2 guard.

If someone is driving over my dlr like that, I generally scoot back and pull him so that his knee falls into the hole I just created... This is extremely effective in the gi. There are immediate attacks as he falls forward with bad posture.

As a last ditch late effort... Vagner is not controlling the bottom guy's right arm as he knee cuts. This presents an opportunity to escape out the back door, especially if he's floating a lot without a lot of upper body pressure. Jeff Glover is amazing at this escape and he transitions directly to darce. There's also a wrestling style version where your right hand reaches under to Vagner's right arm pit and C grips it as a control/pivot point... totally last line of defense...

9/22/20 11:38 PM
7/28/02
Posts: 11810

thanks for your responses guys.  any videos?

9/23/20 1:22 AM
7/18/05
Posts: 7298

If you let yourself get flattened while playing butterfly guard, especially in no-gi, you're going to have really hard time defending against someone good.  The fight would be not to let your opponent put you flat on your back. jm2c

9/23/20 10:35 AM
11/10/05
Posts: 7477
Not exactly your situation this is a general prevention of knee pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yK0RTDXTrU



Here's our own David Marcego showing the escape that I referenced about Glover (who I've seen execute in competition):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaulzxY5ENI



I didn't make one one about scooting back as they try to pin your leg and dragging them into the hole, but pretty simple concept
Edited: 9/23/20 1:19 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4809

There’s the honey hole entry from there when he starts floating that was en vogue a few years ago.  Gi guys are using it now too since you can reap if you don’t attack the leg.  Gordon hasn’t used it since his knee surgery I’ve noticed.  

29 days ago
4/8/10
Posts: 5516
HillboFrateTrane - 

There’s the honey hole entry from there when he starts floating that was en vogue a few years ago.  Gi guys are using it now too since you can reap if you don’t attack the leg.  Gordon hasn’t used it since his knee surgery I’ve noticed.  


Yeah,I find that entry puts a lot of sideways pressure on my knee. I've pretty much stopped using it unless the other person is the same size as me or smaller. Against larger people it puts pretty significant pressure on my LCL. It's a very effective entry but I don't really like using it.
11 days ago
7/28/02
Posts: 11888

To keep this at the top of my subs I just want to thank you guys for contributing.  My major grappling coach Matt Serra told me that butterfly guard is really good for MMA because you can use the technical stand up to get back to your feet without exposing your back. 

So I really focused on it the last couple of years and I don't want to abandon it.  Even thought the leg weave has really challenged me lately I believe I can still make the butterfly work, like when I first improved my game by by developing my shrimping and guard retention, so far what I'm learning is that the reverse shrimp may be helpful against the leg weave. 

The reverse shrimp is actually getting the hips back underneath the passer instead of escaping the hips away.  What do you tthink about that?  I will try to find some videos to demonstrate.

10 days ago
11/10/05
Posts: 7498
Lucas Maximus - 

To keep this at the top of my subs I just want to thank you guys for contributing.  My major grappling coach Matt Serra told me that butterfly guard is really good for MMA because you can use the technical stand up to get back to your feet without exposing your back. 

So I really focused on it the last couple of years and I don't want to abandon it.  Even thought the leg weave has really challenged me lately I believe I can still make the butterfly work, like when I first improved my game by by developing my shrimping and guard retention, so far what I'm learning is that the reverse shrimp may be helpful against the leg weave. 

The reverse shrimp is actually getting the hips back underneath the passer instead of escaping the hips away.  What do you tthink about that?  I will try to find some videos to demonstrate.


Not sure if I understand you correctly. Which foot are you going to plant to shrimp?


IMO you first order of business is to prevent your left thigh from getting pinned from his shin. I'd put some work into that. My main principle of any open guard is to not expose the inside of the thigh in a way that your opponent could pin it to the mat. I mention that here in this discussion on tripod (collar/sleeve) guard.
https://youtu.be/p-UiMK4ow4g?t=35

One of the first things I do and it's the most simple is to just scoot back a little as you see his weight shifting forward and he starts to drive his right knee. You're sitting up with both feet on the mat, this shouldn't be a problem. He absolutely does NOT want to commit forward and have his knee fall to the mat between your legs. He'll be completely off balance. His arm and back will be exposed.

If he's approaching standing as vagner says he might for normal knee cut, then I wouldn't be just sitting squared up to him. I'd get at more of a dlr angle. This goes hand in hand with the scoot back bc your getting better back exposure on him.


If he starts put pressure down on the shin either straighten the left leg and prepare for single-X or bring that knee to your body. I think he's giving you a difficult angle to go directly into butterfly.
Edited: 8 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39660
No disrespect, but how does a BLACK BELT not know the answer to this question...?

I mean, just off the top of my head:

* Fake a bad calf cramp

* Pretend to hear your phone in your gym bag & need to get it.

* Say, "Let's re-start bro, I'm working on something".

* Warn ominously, "Fuk... I need to go to the bathroom."

* Start coaching your opponent as he passes.

Etc.


But, then again, I've been a Black Belt for 13 years and so have learned a thing or two.
Edited: 7 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 699
Scoop gripping underneath the leg that they have in the middle and working to pummel my feet for inside position tends to work best for me. It's a very hard passing position to stop once they get deep into headquarters and post on their hands though.
4 days ago
7/28/02
Posts: 11903

 WWGD what would gordon ryan do

3 days ago
6/4/02
Posts: 19154

I use butterfly a lot.  I always keep my arms/hands in front of feet.  Never concede to being on your back.