David Jacobs' BJJGround is Rickson really qualified to teach gun disarms?

9/13/18 1:57 PM
6/3/18
Posts: 9
is rickson really qualified to teach gun disarms
ok so even if you are skilled enough to disarm it-do you even know how to shoot it?
I have not seen the instructional but in the clip he seems to be hip throwing a person holding a hand gun? maybe the last thing I might try to do in that situation.
I really wish the lessons focused on the basics of jiujitsu and actual moves I could try to get better at while training. I know people that train with him always walk away with game changing details for sweeps and armbars etc. I not a buyer of this series. Am I missing out?
9/13/18 2:29 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3444
I would say it depends.

When it comes to Grappling specific attributes and technical knowledge how to move and control the human body of course Rickson is pretty skilled.

The question is did he put the time in and trained specific gun defense. Did he learn how to use guns, shoot, trains with softair weapons to simulate a guy who really shoots, etc.

If he has done that I would say he is pretty qualified. If he just does the classical japanese Jiu Jitsu stuff I would say he should have skipped that.

9/13/18 3:26 PM
12/30/02
Posts: 31
No. You are only qualified to teach something you've learned, and practiced, and proven to be good at. He has not done #3 unless he has been threatened with a gun a huge number of times, and somehow survived the encounters but failed to mention it to anyone.
9/13/18 3:58 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13034
temp168505 - No. You are only qualified to teach something you've learned, and practiced, and proven to be good at. He has not done #3 unless he has been threatened with a gun a huge number of times, and somehow survived the encounters but failed to mention it to anyone.

so who has faced a gun "a huge number of times"?

afaik, tatang illustrisimo was last to face a death match and guys like Giron faced japanese in wwii.....so only peole like that should teach kali?

 

back in the 90s I had small arms trainers that were former sf, etc who didnt have combat exp3rience.....was their trai in g invalid?

 

What you are saying is trainng ca not be based upon lessons learned and disseminated, and throughout the training tested under resistance and pressure for validity?

 

I wouldnt accept rickson as a valid counter weapons SME based upon what ive seen of his techniques.

 

 

 

9/13/18 4:58 PM
10/14/06
Posts: 880

Rickson can probably put out a great instructional like Carlos Machado did with Infinite Jiu-Jitsu. I'm sure people would buy an entire series just on his mount. Instead, he putting out instructionals that look like George Kirby's Japanese Jiu-Jitsu but with slicker production value.

 

Edited: 9/13/18 5:25 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 32086

I don't know. I don't know if anyone is overly qualified to teach gun disarms. But if you're going to do it, do it to the best of your ability to give people PRACTICAL tools to help them survive.

Gracie weapon defense skills are on par with other TMAs I have studied. There's a lot of overlap in particular with Hapkido, JJJ & Judo's Goshin jutsu. They ALL suffer the same problems of being overly complex & not super practical. --Not the kind of stuff I personally would gamble my life on.

My problem is GJJ instructors who care more about  tradition (e.g. "keeping the Helio way alive") than they care about keeping their students alive.  You have a moral responsibility to train your students in the manner most likely to help them survive, when you teach counter weapon stuff.

When I see "legends" teaching to try and wristlock a dude with a handgun, I just cringe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9/14/18 7:32 AM
6/3/18
Posts: 10
shen - 

I don't know. I don't know if anyone is overly qualified to teach gun disarms. But if you're going to do it, do it to the best of your ability to give people PRACTICAL tools to help them survive.

Gracie weapon defense skills are on par with other TMAs I have studied. There's a lot of overlap in particular with Hapkido, JJJ & Judo's Goshin jutsu. They ALL suffer the same problems of being overly complex & not super practical. --Not the kind of stuff I personally would gamble my life on.

My problem is GJJ instructors who care more about  tradition (e.g. "keeping the Helio way alive") than they care about keeping their students alive.  You have a moral responsibility to train your students in the manner most likely to help them survive, when you teach counter weapon stuff.

When I see "legends" teaching to try and wristlock a dude with a handgun, I just cringe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


"When I see "legends" teaching to try and wristlock a dude with a handgun, I just cringe."

This is exactly what I'm saying Master Shen - that wrist lock is something you could never pull off while rolling in class. So when a guy comes at you with a gun - TRY IT !!!!
9/14/18 10:15 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 3443

Maybe Rickson should teach stuff he's famous for ... Like how he won in MMA.

9/14/18 10:45 AM
2/28/03
Posts: 47134

Shen nailed it. 

 

Burton Richardson has a nice knife disarm video I like. It covers two concepts.  Get both hands on the weapon arm and get between the weapon and the assailant. That’s the type of technique that you can use.  Not this nonsense 

9/14/18 11:27 AM
2/28/03
Posts: 47135

https://youtu.be/9WjSTIcE0cE

9/14/18 2:04 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 1791

 

9/14/18 3:30 PM
2/28/03
Posts: 47136
Aaron Lapointe -

 

Exactly.   That’s what I’m talking about 

Edited: 9/14/18 4:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 32101

What Burton Richardson is doing, Redzone, STAB, what's taught at Impact, Richard Dimitri, what this guy I trained with named Mark Worland teaches, Eric Cobb, What Dog Brother Michael Pinafiel & I have taught together in seminars, etc have a huge COMMONALITY of technique.

[If you can't run away or get cover, a weapon etc...] BASICALLY get a 2-on-1 on the weapon bearing limb, then you can do different stuff from there.

Some teach very specific controls (e.g. baseball bat grip on the wrist or a more classic inside or outside 2-on-1) some just say control the limb in any way you can.

But the REAL learning comes from the scenario drills/ sparring. That's where you learn. There's not very much technique; it's simple but not easy. It's about learning the principles and getting good at appling them.

Grapplers/BJJ players are especially suited to this kind of training because they understand what it means to really hold onto a limb, they understand physical closeness and they have the kind of proprioception, understanding of base, etc that is really useful.

This is what BJJ schools should be teaching. Not some moves copied out of a book 85 years ago.

 

 

 

 

9/14/18 5:37 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8389
In the Weapon Disarm Introduction video, Rickson did say something to the effect, he wouldn't advise attempting to disarm an armed assailant. He said it would be best to either run away if you can or comply. He said the techniques he was teaching were good for learning body mechanics and what to do if you had no choice.

Furthermore, Rickson made a very good point about the unlikelihood of even being in such a situation where you would even have to disarm someone.
9/14/18 5:41 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8390
In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds
9/14/18 5:58 PM
2/28/03
Posts: 47137
m.g - In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds

I have had to deal with criminals in confined spaces.

 

LEO’s, especially CO’s will be in this situation.  

9/14/18 7:03 PM
1/14/08
Posts: 5371

Sub

9/14/18 7:54 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2404
checkuroil -
m.g - In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds

I have had to deal with criminals in confined spaces.

 

LEO’s, especially CO’s will be in this situation.  

Since the brothers do so much work with LEO's it sounds like they are learning from the right source then.

Edited: 9/15/18 12:13 AM
2/28/03
Posts: 47138
rnaviaux -
checkuroil -
m.g - In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds

I have had to deal with criminals in confined spaces.

 

LEO’s, especially CO’s will be in this situation.  

Since the brothers do so much work with LEO's it sounds like they are learning from the right source then.

The problem is they are not learning from them they are teaching. o them with this antiquated nonsense. They were at Fort Bragg last year and my friend attended a seminar of theirs as part of his duty training.  He stated they were so secretive they did not allow any filming of it when it is standard procedure for them to film the seminars that are taught there. I have a feeling it wasn’t for fear of someone profiting off of their products rather it was for fear of criticism of their product. They are great at BJJ but their gun disarms and weapons and tactics stuff looks like a movie choreography scene. 

9/15/18 12:05 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13039
m.g - In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds

LMAO!....are you serious? NO SHIT RUN.

 

LE, COs, Mil, Joe or Jane-Citizen deal with armed attackers everyday. This is metality that is fucking jiujjtsu into faggotry. Go walk around in public in Hawaii....every homeless you see, consider them armed with a knife.

 

And lets consider your "grab a stick..." advice. Do you know how to swing one, or you just planning on flailing like a fucktard? I know a little about using an impact weapon,and against a knife, wtf do you think will likely happen?....The untrained dick-swinger will likely caveman at knifers head. The untrained knifer, if commited to attacking, will likly shield and low thrust or slash. Yeah, thats a shit sandwich right there.

 

9/15/18 12:14 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13040
rnaviaux -
checkuroil -
m.g - In regard to the videos...

When the f*ck would someone really be in that situation? Furthermore, if such a situation really did occur... would it make logical and practical sense to:

1) run away if the opportunity presented itself

2) grab a stick, rock, anything to even the odds

I have had to deal with criminals in confined spaces.

 

LEO’s, especially CO’s will be in this situation.  

Since the brothers do so much work with LEO's it sounds like they are learning from the right source then.

LOL@LEO as a source for counter knife training.

 

One of my partners is a brown belt from another school and currently goijg through LE training. Another of his classmates is a blackbelt, both are not impressed with whay they learned and want to get together for train. Back in the 90s my friends were trained by a FLETC team IIRC....40hrs and I gutted them all after I let them warmup and practice and they k ew I was gonna gut them in the exercise. A few years later one of the DTs asked me for more trainin ng because an encounter with a tonga youth gang at work had him worried a out gettijg shan.ked

 

And really.....what about the pure waters?!?! :p

 

9/15/18 12:16 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13041
shen -

What Burton Richardson is doing, Redzone, STAB, what's taught at Impact, Richard Dimitri, what this guy I trained with named Mark Worland teaches, Eric Cobb, What Dog Brother Michael Pinafiel & I have taught together in seminars, etc have a huge COMMONALITY of technique.

[If you can't run away or get cover, a weapon etc...] BASICALLY get a 2-on-1 on the weapon bearing limb, then you can do different stuff from there.

Some teach very specific controls (e.g. baseball bat grip on the wrist or a more classic inside or outside 2-on-1) some just say control the limb in any way you can.

But the REAL learning comes from the scenario drills/ sparring. That's where you learn. There's not very much technique; it's simple but not easy. It's about learning the principles and getting good at appling them.

Grapplers/BJJ players are especially suited to this kind of training because they understand what it means to really hold onto a limb, they understand physical closeness and they have the kind of proprioception, understanding of base, etc that is really useful.

This is what BJJ schools should be teaching. Not some moves copied out of a book 85 years ago.

 

 

 

 

-- "But the REAL learning comes from the scenario drills/ sparring. That's where you learn. There's not very much technique; it's simple but not easy. It's about learning the principles and getting good at appling them."

 

BOOM!

9/15/18 11:38 AM
8/3/04
Posts: 2882
Sgt. Slaphead -
temp168505 - No. You are only qualified to teach something you've learned, and practiced, and proven to be good at. He has not done #3 unless he has been threatened with a gun a huge number of times, and somehow survived the encounters but failed to mention it to anyone.

so who has faced a gun "a huge number of times"?

afaik, tatang illustrisimo was last to face a death match and guys like Giron faced japanese in wwii.....so only peole like that should teach kali?

 

back in the 90s I had small arms trainers that were former sf, etc who didnt have combat exp3rience.....was their trai in g invalid?

 

What you are saying is trainng ca not be based upon lessons learned and disseminated, and throughout the training tested under resistance and pressure for validity?

 

I wouldnt accept rickson as a valid counter weapons SME based upon what ive seen of his techniques.

 

 

 

But you do have jkd guys back in the day who would go out and get in street fights and video the fight to review and adjust.   I think Vunak used to do that.   

9/15/18 12:16 PM
10/14/03
Posts: 116
shen - 

What Burton Richardson is doing, Redzone, STAB, what's taught at Impact, Richard Dimitri, what this guy I trained with named Mark Worland teaches, Eric Cobb, What Dog Brother Michael Pinafiel & I have taught together in seminars, etc have a huge COMMONALITY of technique.

[If you can't run away or get cover, a weapon etc...] BASICALLY get a 2-on-1 on the weapon bearing limb, then you can do different stuff from there.

Some teach very specific controls (e.g. baseball bat grip on the wrist or a more classic inside or outside 2-on-1) some just say control the limb in any way you can.

But the REAL learning comes from the scenario drills/ sparring. That's where you learn. There's not very much technique; it's simple but not easy. It's about learning the principles and getting good at appling them.

Grapplers/BJJ players are especially suited to this kind of training because they understand what it means to really hold onto a limb, they understand physical closeness and they have the kind of proprioception, understanding of base, etc that is really useful.

This is what BJJ schools should be teaching. Not some moves copied out of a book 85 years ago.

 

 

 

 


100% this. Was actually going over this with one of the guys in class this morning because we have been tasked with coming up with some stuff for some EP types and part of it relates to weapons defense.

We kept coming back to, "of all the stuff we have tried over the last 20 years, what has emerged when we ratchet up the resistance?"

Our experience reflects exactly what is said here. My number one "knife disarm" when and if I can get one is not pretty at all, but it fits precisely within what you described, and it came about from a ton of drilling/sparring against escalating levels of aggression.
9/15/18 2:29 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13044
Horus2001 -
Sgt. Slaphead -
temp168505 - No. You are only qualified to teach something you've learned, and practiced, and proven to be good at. He has not done #3 unless he has been threatened with a gun a huge number of times, and somehow survived the encounters but failed to mention it to anyone.

so who has faced a gun "a huge number of times"?

afaik, tatang illustrisimo was last to face a death match and guys like Giron faced japanese in wwii.....so only peole like that should teach kali?

 

back in the 90s I had small arms trainers that were former sf, etc who didnt have combat exp3rience.....was their trai in g invalid?

 

What you are saying is trainng ca not be based upon lessons learned and disseminated, and throughout the training tested under resistance and pressure for validity?

 

I wouldnt accept rickson as a valid counter weapons SME based upon what ive seen of his techniques.

 

 

 

But you do have jkd guys back in the day who would go out and get in street fights and video the fight to review and adjust.   I think Vunak used to do that.   

goes to my poinnt of "lessons learned..."