David Jacobs' BJJGround what is the future of closed guard?

14 days ago
8/20/16
Posts: 819

the thread about trends has me thinking as someone commented that closed guard is a great guad, but it's hard to keep people in it. That got me thinking about that weird hook Adam W. uses to keep people down in his butterfly guard and I realized that in the last few years I've started playing closed guard with double grapevines on their legs just for that reason: to disrupt their posture and keep them down.

What modifications have you guys made to your closed guard?

14 days ago
5/18/06
Posts: 7555

To me, the hard part is getting people into closed guard, especially with so many people passing standing now.  Once they're in my closed guard, keeping them is relatively easy because I can act, they can only react. 

14 days ago
5/11/08
Posts: 2843
The Mat Pimp -

To me, the hard part is getting people into closed guard, especially with so many people passing standing now.  Once they're in my closed guard, keeping them is relatively easy because I can act, they can only react. 

Yeah, this is the issue. It's why you rarely see closed guard in high level comps anymore. Getting out of closed guard is actually very difficult. it's extremely hard to do it on your knees, so you pretty much have to stand which opens you up to all sorts of attacks.

14 days ago
2/21/11
Posts: 6651
Side guard, high guard. Xande, Roger, Gordon all have some great innovations/attacks/concepts from closed guard.
Edited: 14 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 9289

The key to getting closed guard is to make them have to pressure you. Make them have to put pressure on you if they want to keep you on bottom and it's much easier to pull them into closed or sweep them if they are pressuring you. If they give you too much space you stand up. You can jump to closed guard if you want to.

 

Another good path is from half guard. I like half butterfly where I elevate my opponent and drop them into my closed guard. 

14 days ago
3/7/20
Posts: 89
Calhoon -

The key to getting closed guard is to make them have to pressure you. Make them have to put pressure on you if they want to keep you on bottom and it's much easier to pull them into closed or sweep them if they are pressuring you. If they give you too much space you stand up. You can jump to closed guard if you want to.

 

Another good path is from half guard. I like half butterfly where I elevate my opponent and drop them into my closed guard. 

I second this. Butterfly Half Guard is perfect for getting Closed Guard

13 days ago
2/25/20
Posts: 5
The Mat Pimp -

To me, the hard part is getting people into closed guard, especially with so many people passing standing now.  Once they're in my closed guard, keeping them is relatively easy because I can act, they can only react. 

This is very, very true especially at black belt comp level. I've been watching a ton of Kron to research closed guard, and concluded that even he doesn't have an easy time getting and staying there.

IMO the best, best way to get to closed guard against a standing opponent is to (like Kron) play a good old collar-sleeve from open. This is not an easy guard to play, since it requires you to maintain very specific foot placement (hip and bicep) against opponents that are much more mobile than the guard player. There are plenty of tips online on how to break people down to their knees, but the guard player has to be more active in trying to off-balance. It's not hard for the top player to just deny you foot placement without actually trying to pass.

On the other hand, there are a few Roger Gracie videos on YT showing how he breaks closed guard by standing. IMO it's extremely effective. I used to wreck lots of my students in closed guard but since I started teaching them the underlying objectives Roger taught and how to pass that way they've been making it far less easy for me.

Edited: 13 days ago
10/27/03
Posts: 27134

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

13 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 997
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

13 days ago
10/27/03
Posts: 27139
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

13 days ago
5/18/06
Posts: 7560
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That's right.  A good sweep from closed is gonna score big if you land in mount.  To me, the three "killing positions" in jiujitsu are mount, back mount, and closed guard, where you have tons of submission opportunities and they have little or none.  They are all permutations of having your legs around your opponent and there's a lot of reciprocity between them. 

13 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 998
FingerorMoon -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

 think about it. from closed guard on top, without punches, there is nothing the person on top can do to the bottom person except amassa pao, a far fetched ezekiel choke, or try to open the guard. They have literally no opportunity to score or hurt the bottom oerson. 

13 days ago
5/18/06
Posts: 7561
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

 think about it. from closed guard on top, without punches, there is nothing the person on top can do to the bottom person except amassa pao, a far fetched ezekiel choke, or try to open the guard. They have literally no opportunity to score or hurt the bottom oerson. 

That's what I've found, and the guy playing closed guard has almost infinite options for attacks, sweeps, and back takes.  It's a tough spot to be in if a closed guard player knows what he's doing. 

Edited: 13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39587

OK... when you say say 'Closed Guard' you mean that guard in the old books where they cross their ankles behind someone's back...?
13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39588
FingerorMoon - 

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.


Man, I watched a Brown Belt match years ago --maybe Pan Ams-- one guy puled closed guard immediately and then spent the ENTIRE 8 minutes of the match with both of his hands reaching over his opponent's shoulder and grabbing tighly onto the back of his belt.

2 ref stand-ups right into the exact same thing.

Then overtime, same thing.

NOTHING happened during the match, nothing. They gave it to the guy in guard for being "on top".



13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13740
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

When the acme of stupidity still has a myriad of brainless followers, a legitimate technique will last for eons! BTW, Bruce was the originator of the "full gward"!!!  The more you know!!!!

 

13 days ago
10/27/03
Posts: 27146
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

 think about it. from closed guard on top, without punches, there is nothing the person on top can do to the bottom person except amassa pao, a far fetched ezekiel choke, or try to open the guard. They have literally no opportunity to score or hurt the bottom oerson. 

Is it not clear I’m being sarcastic and making a comment about shitty stand up rules?

11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 22732
shootbjj -
The Mat Pimp -

To me, the hard part is getting people into closed guard, especially with so many people passing standing now.  Once they're in my closed guard, keeping them is relatively easy because I can act, they can only react. 

This is very, very true especially at black belt comp level. I've been watching a ton of Kron to research closed guard, and concluded that even he doesn't have an easy time getting and staying there.

IMO the best, best way to get to closed guard against a standing opponent is to (like Kron) play a good old collar-sleeve from open. This is not an easy guard to play, since it requires you to maintain very specific foot placement (hip and bicep) against opponents that are much more mobile than the guard player. There are plenty of tips online on how to break people down to their knees, but the guard player has to be more active in trying to off-balance. It's not hard for the top player to just deny you foot placement without actually trying to pass.

On the other hand, there are a few Roger Gracie videos on YT showing how he breaks closed guard by standing. IMO it's extremely effective. I used to wreck lots of my students in closed guard but since I started teaching them the underlying objectives Roger taught and how to pass that way they've been making it far less easy for me.

The underlying objectives are my favorite part. 

8 days ago
3/7/20
Posts: 99
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

 think about it. from closed guard on top, without punches, there is nothing the person on top can do to the bottom person except amassa pao, a far fetched ezekiel choke, or try to open the guard. They have literally no opportunity to score or hurt the bottom oerson. 

Don't forget leg lockies 

8 days ago
10/3/04
Posts: 4025
shen -
FingerorMoon - 

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.


Man, I watched a Brown Belt match years ago --maybe Pan Ams-- one guy puled closed guard immediately and then spent the ENTIRE 8 minutes of the match with both of his hands reaching over his opponent's shoulder and grabbing tighly onto the back of his belt.

2 ref stand-ups right into the exact same thing.

Then overtime, same thing.

NOTHING happened during the match, nothing. They gave it to the guy in guard for being "on top".



I've seen the exact opposite happen, I have a buddy who lost a couple matches at brown because his opponent managed to pull closed guard and then just hung on for the entire match and stalled while my buddy tried to open again and again... both times they gave it to the guy on bottom.

 

It's probably because my friend sucks ass at jiu jitsu though

8 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 39667
The Gimp - 
shen -
FingerorMoon - 

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.


Man, I watched a Brown Belt match years ago --maybe Pan Ams-- one guy puled closed guard immediately and then spent the ENTIRE 8 minutes of the match with both of his hands reaching over his opponent's shoulder and grabbing tighly onto the back of his belt.

2 ref stand-ups right into the exact same thing.

Then overtime, same thing.

NOTHING happened during the match, nothing. They gave it to the guy in guard for being "on top".



I've seen the exact opposite happen, I have a buddy who lost a couple matches at brown because his opponent managed to pull closed guard and then just hung on for the entire match and stalled while my buddy tried to open again and again... both times they gave it to the guy on bottom.

 

It's probably because my friend sucks ass at jiu jitsu though



Either way it sure if fun to watch!
8 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 1002
Cale -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -
mideastgrappler -
FingerorMoon -

The closed guard will always be the ultimate guard .... for clamping down tightly and stalling until the ref stands you up.

and perfect for a variety of submissions, back takes, and a large amount of sweeps that lead directly to mount

That’s crazy talk.

 think about it. from closed guard on top, without punches, there is nothing the person on top can do to the bottom person except amassa pao, a far fetched ezekiel choke, or try to open the guard. They have literally no opportunity to score or hurt the bottom oerson. 

Don't forget leg lockies 

kind of hard if the guarder is grabbing at the head, breaking posture, or has an overhook

 

Top person still needs to open the guard