OtherGround Forums Disputing The Medal of Honor and other awards

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11733

I really like Dakota Meyer. Was pumped when he was on Rogan. And if you go back to the 60 minutes interview, the look in Meyers eyes just scream “i saw some awful shit.” First living Marine since Vietnam to be awarded the MOH. 

Then while googling around, I see these articles that dispute the official story. I went thru this before with Marcus Luttrell. I think it’s safe to say his recounting of events could be pretty far removed from what actually happened. In his case, he wrote a book and they made a movie. And his debrief was already a wild story. 

Meyer also wrote a book which I haven’t read yet. But the 2 things that kept popping up in the articles and video I saw, was that in Meyers case and many other MOH guys, it was the military that exaggerated things to push the medal citation through. Pat Tillman is the most egregious case I can think of. And second, across the board, everyone agreed that Meyer is a hero who deserved the medal even without the exaggerations. Same for Luttrell and his medals, I’m sure. Lots of examples. Chris Kyle. 

So I don’t feel conflicted about how I feel about all those guys. Kyle is different maybe. But once again disappointed in the military and almost don’t even want to know what else isn’t true. 

What do do you guys know/think about this?

22 days ago
5/22/05
Posts: 23907

It seems like a high proportion of memoirs by ex soldiers are exaggerated. 

Shakespeare has a line in henry v about how the soldiers can exaggerate their exploits when they go home. Nothing new under the sun. 

22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84106
Next you'll tell me Jessica Lynch didn't take out 10 Iraqis before being captured and actually never even fired her weapon because she didn't know how to clear a jam.

But I have no idea who Dakota is. Will look into it (not that it matters what any of us think).
22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84107
Audie Murphy seems like the opposite. Tons of witnesses and the stories were consistent. They actually had to limit what they showed him doing on screen because they thought audiences would never believe the real shit.
22 days ago
4/6/12
Posts: 10160

In

22 days ago
3/23/07
Posts: 59960

The vetting process to receive the Medal of Honor is very thorough and can take several years.

Unless you have a specific reason to doubt it, I don't see why you would.

22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84108
Here's the citation:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving with Marine Embedded Training Team 2-8, Regional Corps Advisory Command 3-7, in Kunar Province, Afghanistan, on 8 September 2009. Corporal Meyer maintained security at a patrol rally point while other members of his team moved on foot with two platoons of Afghan National Army and Border Police into the village of Ganjgal for a pre-dawn meeting with village elders. Moving into the village, the patrol was ambushed by more than 50 enemy fighters firing rocket propelled grenades, mortars, and machine guns from houses and fortified positions on the slopes above. Hearing over the radio that four U.S. team members were cut off, Corporal Meyer seized the initiative. With a fellow Marine driving, Corporal Meyer took the exposed gunner's position in a gun-truck as they drove down the steeply terraced terrain in a daring attempt to disrupt the enemy attack and locate the trapped U.S. team. Disregarding intense enemy fire now concentrated on their lone vehicle, Corporal Meyer killed a number of enemy fighters with the mounted machine guns and his rifle, some at near point blank range, as he and his driver made three solo trips into the ambush area. During the first two trips, he and his driver evacuated two dozen Afghan soldiers, many of whom were wounded. When one machine gun became inoperable, he directed a return to the rally point to switch to another gun-truck for a third trip into the ambush area where his accurate fire directly supported the remaining U.S. personnel and Afghan soldiers fighting their way out of the ambush. Despite a shrapnel wound to his arm, Corporal Meyer made two more trips into the ambush area in a third gun-truck accompanied by four other Afghan vehicles to recover more wounded Afghan soldiers and search for the missing U.S. team members. Still under heavy enemy fire, he dismounted the vehicle on the fifth trip and moved on foot to locate and recover the bodies of his team members. Meyer's daring initiative and bold fighting spirit throughout the 6-hour battle significantly disrupted the enemy's attack and inspired the members of the combined force to fight on. His unwavering courage and steadfast devotion to his U.S. and Afghan comrades in the face of almost certain death reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.[41]
22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84109
Nothing about that sounds ridiculous.
22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11734
Fake Pie - Audie Murphy seems like the opposite. Tons of witnesses and the stories were consistent. They actually had to limit what they showed him doing on screen because they thought audiences would never believe the real shit.

I was gonna say “what’s next, Audie Murphy didn’t take out a tank?” or whatever he did. 

And even at 18 years old, I knew the Jessica Lynch story was bullshit. What’s cool about her is she’s been disputing it herself from the beginning I think. There was like a mini smear campaign on her too. 

Her and Kevin Tillman testifying in front of congress was maddening to listen to, especially knowing no changes were made. 

22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84110
Yeah Lynch wanted no part of the Army's propaganda. Disgusting how they treated her for not going along with them.
22 days ago
8/27/11
Posts: 2456
Fake Pie - Audie Murphy seems like the opposite. Tons of witnesses and the stories were consistent. They actually had to limit what they showed him doing on screen because they thought audiences would never believe the real shit.

And then he went on to have a successful career as a comedian on SNL and successful movie roles like The Nutty Professor. 

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11735

Story from NPR (whatever) that covers it. It was the first google response. I’ll keep looking. There are videos taken from a helicopter whenever they showed up live during the end of the battle. They’re out there

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/12/15/143759277/report-marines-promoted-inflated-story-for-medal-of-honor-recipient

 

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11736
saglv -

The vetting process to receive the Medal of Honor is very thorough and can take several years.

Unless you have a specific reason to doubt it, I don't see why you would.

I didn’t. I eat those stories up. But lots of people don’t and I think it’s the marine corps that investigates all these situations. They ripped Luttrells story to shreds. Less so with Meyer, and allegedly his own debrief doesn’t claim some shit that’s in there. I know the citation was altered or I think maybe just kinda changed is sourcing before the ceremony. Which is unusual, and happened because certain things weren’t vetted. 

22 days ago
8/19/19
Posts: 184
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mev2exb1C0g
22 days ago
12/9/13
Posts: 5953

In my experience the military is pretty stingy with medals involving valor.

On of my best friends stuck himself between my vehicle and a car bomb.   He saved me and another enlisted guy along with the second highest ranking and probably the third highest ranking civilian in Iraq at the time.   

 

He he didn’t even get a silver star.

22 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 84116
PhillyFights - 

Story from NPR (whatever) that covers it. It was the first google response. I’ll keep looking. There are videos taken from a helicopter whenever they showed up live during the end of the battle. They’re out there

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/12/15/143759277/report-marines-promoted-inflated-story-for-medal-of-honor-recipient

 


From that link it sounds like the citation is on the up and up but the PR press when he got back is where they went off the rails with unsubstantiated stuff.
22 days ago
12/15/11
Posts: 26991
saglv -

The vetting process to receive the Medal of Honor is very thorough and can take several years.

Unless you have a specific reason to doubt it, I don't see why you would.

^

22 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13811
I know a guy, childhood friend of my dad. He was a Marine in Vietnam in the later 60's. Navy Cross recipient, and MOH nominee.

I've known him my entire life, and he NEVER talks about any of it, unless somebody asks. Even then, he tends to downplay it.

Years ago, I talked to our Congressman about the possibility to re-evaluating his MOH nomination. The Congressman did some research, and was totally onboard. My dad's friend had no idea I had done any of that. The process got to the point to where I had to tell him, and he had to approve some files being opened.

Basically, he told me "thank you" but that he'd rather have the Congressman spend his time and efforts towards bringing home the guys who were fighting in the Middle East at the time.
22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11737
Fake Pie -
PhillyFights - 

Story from NPR (whatever) that covers it. It was the first google response. I’ll keep looking. There are videos taken from a helicopter whenever they showed up live during the end of the battle. They’re out there

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/12/15/143759277/report-marines-promoted-inflated-story-for-medal-of-honor-recipient

 


From that link it sounds like the citation is on the up and up but the PR press when he got back is where they went off the rails with unsubstantiated stuff.

I gotta find another link then, because parts of that citation are definitely disputed. Some witnesses say he never dismounted, or not as many times, and all witnesses say they only saw him kill one enemy. They couldn’t find anyone who saw more. Including the guy driving the truck he was in. 

I don’t wanna sound like I’m shitting on the guy. I like him a lot. But those disputes are out there, and something weird happened with the actual citation at the last minute. 

Also, the Army soldier who was driving the truck was also awarded the MOH, but due to some fuck up he couldn’t get it at the same time as Meyer even though he was in attendance 

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11738

Here’s from one source. I honestly don’t know how good:

“The Marine officials, who requested anonymity because of the issue’s sensitivity, acknowledged that portions of the narrative were changed from the account Williams submitted. They said that the changes occurred between July, when Obama approved Meyer’s medal nomination, and the September White House ceremony. Inaccuracies were written into the citation and the narrative of Meyer’s deeds, although the narrative contained far more errors and exaggerations.”

And here. I guess the author was there. 

“McClatchy found that the claim that Meyer saved the lives of 13 U.S. Marines and soldiers couldn’t be true. Twelve Americans were ambushed — including this correspondent — and of those, four were killed. (One wounded American would die a month later.) Moreover, multiple sworn statements affirm McClatchy's firsthand reporting that it was the long-delayed arrival of U.S. helicopters that saved the American survivors.“

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/article24720631.html

 


 

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11739
GHTT_Pig Bun - I know a guy, childhood friend of my dad. He was a Marine in Vietnam in the later 60's. Navy Cross recipient, and MOH nominee.

I've known him my entire life, and he NEVER talks about any of it, unless somebody asks. Even then, he tends to downplay it.

Years ago, I talked to our Congressman about the possibility to re-evaluating his MOH nomination. The Congressman did some research, and was totally onboard. My dad's friend had no idea I had done any of that. The process got to the point to where I had to tell him, and he had to approve some files being opened.

Basically, he told me "thank you" but that he'd rather have the Congressman spend his time and efforts towards bringing home the guys who were fighting in the Middle East at the time.

He should get a medal just for that answer

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11741
saglv -

The vetting process to receive the Medal of Honor is very thorough and can take several years.

Unless you have a specific reason to doubt it, I don't see why you would.

So I guess this is just a shitty subject to talk about all around. But before this thread dies, I wanted to respond to this one. I’ve actually been thinking about it, because Sagiv you are a great poster and actual Marine if I’m not mistaken. 

I guess if you trust the process, then you shouldn’t go looking for reasons. The movie Courage Under Fire was the extent of my knowledge for MOH vetting. But even in that movie, there’s a scene where someone is telling Denzel to just push it through. I guess until Pat Tillman I didn’t really know just how far and blatantly they (the brass and politicians) were willing to lie. Or even before that, Jessica Lynch. Absurd the way that was handled. 

I will always support the soldier/marine as default mode until given reason not to. But it seems like this happens a lot and I no longer trust the process. 

22 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35824
^^^ for some people it's made their entire careers and is practically akin to winning the lottery, so to speak. So when you find out things didn't exactly go down the way you've been told and that things were highly exaggerated to create a narrative for whomever or whatever, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Dare I say, it's even in the neighborhood of fraud.

There should be absolute no doubts, not a lot of hearsay about what really went down. Just my thoughts.
22 days ago
1/20/11
Posts: 4089

In

22 days ago
11/18/09
Posts: 11743
Liyon - ^^^ for some people it's made their entire careers and is practically akin to winning the lottery, so to speak. So when you find out things didn't exactly go down the way you've been told and that things were highly exaggerated to create a narrative for whomever or whatever, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Dare I say, it's even in the neighborhood of fraud.

There should be absolute no doubts, not a lot of hearsay about what really went down. Just my thoughts.

Worse than that, I think that some recipients were pressured one way or another to go along with stories that they didn’t want to. 

Take it how you will but I heard Andy Stumpf ask Meyer where he keeps his MOH (Andy doesn’t know where his actual medals are), Meyer said it’s in his daughters jewelry box for her to play with. In the same podcast he repeated that he hates the MOH and told an interesting story about going to some party only for recipients and how depressing it was. He’s said a lot of things, frankly. 

I hope no one thinks I’m shitting on this guy. If anything it makes me like him more. 

Hes said some other kinda cryptic things. 

*Also, just remembered. Dakota is the guy who had the ”internet beef” with Dan Bilzerian, and offered to fight him over the Vegas shooting. Sad we won’t get to see that.