OtherGround Forums Florida Man Stands his Ground over Parking Dispute

7/22/18 12:29 PM
5/13/02
Posts: 30494
Once again, I wouldn't have shot the guy. As a general concept, don't punch, kick, throw, or otherwise forcefully slam someone into the concrete and you won't risk getting shot. For you tough guys who consider yourselves street fighters, what that means is: "don't bring your knife to a gun fight" this isn't a fucking playground and you're not in grade school.
7/22/18 12:38 PM
9/20/06
Posts: 288
theseanster -
Headless Samurai - 

The amount of people on here who think shooting a man dead because of a shove, is shocking. When did American men become such pussies. 


lol @ "a shove"

Yeah, it was a light use of force that barely displaced the man, amirite?!?! Practically just tickled him!

On second viewing, you are correct. The man was attacked with so much violence, it was amazing that he didn't die before he hit the ground. After surviving such an attack, he was lucky enough to squeeze off a defensive shot just as the grim reaper himself was coming to collect his soul. That video, made Mexican beheading videos look tame in comparison.  

7/22/18 12:47 PM
12/29/03
Posts: 45308
Akkadian88 - 
Samoa -
effertime -

All the tough/big guys think he should just "throw them hands". Thats obviously what big or tough guys think, they prefer to have an advantage in a violent situation.

When a smaller or less athletic person pulls out a weapon, all of a sudden its not fair and he's a pussy. But of course, they never think they're being pussies when they're fighting people smaller than them. 

Dont be violent and you wont get shot, or stabbed or whatever. Simple.

 

 

Don’t provoke situations when you are carrying your gun. It’s in the training to get a CCW.  

Florida is a shall issue state. There is no training required. 


7/22/18 12:53 PM
12/29/03
Posts: 45309

Okay, so theres no way im reading through 22 pages of crap.

You all know me, I am very Pro 2nd Amendment and Pro CCW, as well as Pro SYG.

That being said, IMO, this was not a good shoot. 

After the shove, the attacker backed up and did not proceed with any form of violent action. Obviously we dont know what is being said at the time so there could be SOMETHING there, however from the video, after the initial assault, there was no followup action.

Once the guy that got shoved pulled out the gun, the shover stepped back even more and pretty much turned his back on the shooter. Again, there was no reasonable threat of severe injury or deadly force.

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is a video showing the actual shooting. Where was the threat?

 

7/22/18 1:03 PM
6/26/06
Posts: 9737
SergesBeefyHopeFlaps - 

Okay, so theres no way im reading through 22 pages of crap.

You all know me, I am very Pro 2nd Amendment and Pro CCW, as well as Pro SYG.

That being said, IMO, this was not a good shoot. 

After the shove, the attacker backed up and did not proceed with any form of violent action. Obviously we dont know what is being said at the time so there could be SOMETHING there, however from the video, after the initial assault, there was no followup action.

Once the guy that got shoved pulled out the gun, the shover stepped back even more and pretty much turned his back on the shooter. Again, there was no reasonable threat of severe injury or deadly force.

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is a video showing the actual shooting. Where was the threat?

 


Threat was neutralized 2A SYG style.
7/22/18 1:16 PM
2/23/05
Posts: 11818
Word
7/22/18 1:21 PM
6/20/13
Posts: 7521
SergesBeefyHopeFlaps -

Okay, so theres no way im reading through 22 pages of crap.

You all know me, I am very Pro 2nd Amendment and Pro CCW, as well as Pro SYG.

That being said, IMO, this was not a good shoot. 

After the shove, the attacker backed up and did not proceed with any form of violent action. Obviously we dont know what is being said at the time so there could be SOMETHING there, however from the video, after the initial assault, there was no followup action.

Once the guy that got shoved pulled out the gun, the shover stepped back even more and pretty much turned his back on the shooter. Again, there was no reasonable threat of severe injury or deadly force.

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is a video showing the actual shooting. Where was the threat?

 

This shooter is up there with the bail lady

 

7/22/18 2:09 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 41474
Samoa -
pfsjkd -
jcblass -
The law really hinges on one's perception of danger, if the shooter has a justifiable reason to be fearful, then he can defend himself. It is up to him to articulate that properly. If he says, "well he fucked with me, so I shot him..." not good. If he says, "I am nearly 50 years old, I have a bad back, and he shoved me really hard, after I hit the cement, I wasn't sure I could get up, and I knew that if he got on top of me, I could have been killed, so I reacted out of fear." He has a chance.
 
I think this shoot is questionable, but I am also sitting at my computer, calm, on a Saturday night. Once you take someone out of that element, especially by force and violence, then all bets are off. 
 
So this guy was there engaging the driver, and out of nowhere he was shoved to the ground hard, by a much larger and more aggressive male, at that point, logic goes out the window and the flight or fight mechanism takes hold, so all bets are off then. In Florida you just can't blindly shove people to the ground, because if they honestly feel like they broke their hip, or their mind scrambles, and they "fear" being attacked further, then they can respond with lethal force. That's what happened here, sad, but it seems to be legal under the law. 

Great post. 

Actually it doesn’t come down to “one’s pereception”. It comes down to a normal and prudent person’s perception and what that person would do given the same circumstances. Legally at least. 

jcblass addressed that with the statement, “if the shooter has a justifiable reason to be fearful, then he can defend himself.”

This is one of the main points that I’ve been trying to hammer home. You can’t just say “I was afraid for my life“. You need to articulate facts that show your belief is reasonable. 

7/22/18 2:11 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 41475
RenatoCocopreta -
Samoa - 
pfsjkd -
jcblass -
The law really hinges on one's perception of danger, if the shooter has a justifiable reason to be fearful, then he can defend himself. It is up to him to articulate that properly. If he says, "well he fucked with me, so I shot him..." not good. If he says, "I am nearly 50 years old, I have a bad back, and he shoved me really hard, after I hit the cement, I wasn't sure I could get up, and I knew that if he got on top of me, I could have been killed, so I reacted out of fear." He has a chance.
 
I think this shoot is questionable, but I am also sitting at my computer, calm, on a Saturday night. Once you take someone out of that element, especially by force and violence, then all bets are off. 
 
So this guy was there engaging the driver, and out of nowhere he was shoved to the ground hard, by a much larger and more aggressive male, at that point, logic goes out the window and the flight or fight mechanism takes hold, so all bets are off then. In Florida you just can't blindly shove people to the ground, because if they honestly feel like they broke their hip, or their mind scrambles, and they "fear" being attacked further, then they can respond with lethal force. That's what happened here, sad, but it seems to be legal under the law. 

Great post. 

Actually it doesn’t come down to “one’s pereception”. It comes down to a normal and prudent person’s perception and what that person would do given the same circumstances. Legally at least. 


No, you are wrong my tubby tanned friend.

SYG allows the subjective reasoning of the shooter to determine the legality WHICH IS WHY HE WONT BE CHARGED WITH ANYTHING.

Aaaaaaand you’re still wrong. SYG is not absolute. 

7/22/18 2:23 PM
10/2/12
Posts: 8332

As a CCW holder in California of all places I would never place myself in a confrontational situation whether armed or not. If anything while I’m carrying i make sure I’m a ghost even more so. A smile. Nod. Polite greeting is all I want to give while armed. Same with not armed. 

This guy put himself into a confrontational situation knowing he was armed. Probably only because he was armed. Normal people don’t do this type of shit. So when he got shoved he was not going to exit that situation no matter what without shooting the guy. That man should not be allowed to carry ever again. He should gave some sort of charges. 

7/22/18 2:36 PM
4/11/14
Posts: 7763

Renato, why are you thinking like the SJWs you hate by placing feelings over facts on this one subject?

Shouldn’t your worldview be consistent?

facts>feelings 

 

7/22/18 2:51 PM
1/23/13
Posts: 1350
Shover should have stood his ground and beat him to death by this logic.
7/22/18 2:52 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 20612
Did anyone comment/respond to my comment?

Can someone scroll thru the last 500+ responses and let me know?
7/22/18 3:20 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 41481
FreightTrain - Did anyone comment/respond to my comment?

Can someone scroll thru the last 500+ responses and let me know?

You mean the post asking if he was in imminent danger or not? Yes, many people have responded with their opinion on that. 

7/22/18 3:24 PM
7/2/07
Posts: 11605
Sonny needs to explain to C this was not about a parking spot
7/22/18 3:41 PM
6/26/06
Posts: 9738
Positive Energy - 

Renato, why are you thinking like the SJWs you hate by placing feelings over facts on this one subject?

Shouldn’t your worldview be consistent?

facts>feelings 

 


Im going by the letter of the law as the sheriff explained.
7/22/18 3:46 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 41485
RenatoCocopreta -
Positive Energy - 

Renato, why are you thinking like the SJWs you hate by placing feelings over facts on this one subject?

Shouldn’t your worldview be consistent?

facts>feelings 

 


Im going by the letter of the law as the sheriff explained.

Except that you’re not. 

7/22/18 4:03 PM
7/15/02
Posts: 10296
Fake Pie -
pfsjkd -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
vincan469 -

so if the guy shot had been carrying and had feared for his wife safety could he have just walked up and shot the guy duirng the interaction with his wife?

No because that guy was saying things not assualting people. 

The person who was shot wasn’t assaulting anyone at the time he was shot. 

Well no one is doing anything at the moment they are shot beside getting shot. 

I’m not sure how that’s true. It’s certainly correct to say, in common language, something like “he was shot while advancing toward that man in a threatening manner”. 

Again, if you simply think that any shove opens one up to justifiable killing then just declare your strange view and be done with it. If not, state what you would’ve wanted the man to do after the shove. 

I just found it a strange comment. Like if I stabbed you and you fell down then shot me from the ground I could say well I wasn't stabbing you when you shot me! 

If you stabbed someone and they fell to the ground and you were backing away, then under most definitions of self-defense they wouldn’t be justified in shooting you (cops operate under slightly different rules). Admittedly, this could change 180 degrees depending on many small factors, but in the simple situation you used as an example, that’s how it works. 

Lol. Dude I love you but zero people ever would get convicted for shooting someone who just stabbed them. Ever. 

I agree with you, but I think there are some big practical differences between the two. First, if someone stabs you, you can reasonably infer they’re most probably trying to kill you or do you serious bodily harm, but you can’t reasonably infer that from a shove.

Second, a stabbing is serious enough that it’s unreasonable to expect the victim to totally keep their cool. In other words, some of the justifications that the trolls above are trying to apply to this case would actually apply in the case of a stabbing. I think if you decide to carry a gun it’s incumbent upon you to determine for yourself whether or not you can take a push to the ground without freaking out, and if you self-assess incorrectly then it’s on you. 

About the only thing that could get me to change my mind here would be if actual doctors testified that the shooter had a legit concussion. 

7/22/18 4:13 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 20616
pfsjkd - 
FreightTrain - Did anyone comment/respond to my comment?

Can someone scroll thru the last 500+ responses and let me know?

You mean the post asking if he was in imminent danger or not? Yes, many people have responded with their opinion on that. 


Oh ok.

I'm very lazy.

Can you tell me from which page I should follow the discussion?
7/22/18 4:14 PM
5/11/11
Posts: 1857
bakobell -

As a CCW holder in California of all places I would never place myself in a confrontational situation whether armed or not. If anything while I’m carrying i make sure I’m a ghost even more so. A smile. Nod. Polite greeting is all I want to give while armed. Same with not armed. 

This guy put himself into a confrontational situation knowing he was armed. Probably only because he was armed. Normal people don’t do this type of shit. So when he got shoved he was not going to exit that situation no matter what without shooting the guy. That man should not be allowed to carry ever again. He should gave some sort of charges. 

This is accurate, shooter is a big floppy pussy

7/22/18 4:48 PM
4/11/14
Posts: 7764
RenatoCocopreta -
Positive Energy - 

Renato, why are you thinking like the SJWs you hate by placing feelings over facts on this one subject?

Shouldn’t your worldview be consistent?

facts>feelings 

 


Im going by the letter of the law as the sheriff explained.

But why do you care about the shooter’s feelings so much? This is the stuff the very “libturds” you hate so much do.

Facts>feelings

 

7/22/18 5:12 PM
12/2/05
Posts: 73414
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
pfsjkd -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
vincan469 -

so if the guy shot had been carrying and had feared for his wife safety could he have just walked up and shot the guy duirng the interaction with his wife?

No because that guy was saying things not assualting people. 

The person who was shot wasn’t assaulting anyone at the time he was shot. 

Well no one is doing anything at the moment they are shot beside getting shot. 

I’m not sure how that’s true. It’s certainly correct to say, in common language, something like “he was shot while advancing toward that man in a threatening manner”. 

Again, if you simply think that any shove opens one up to justifiable killing then just declare your strange view and be done with it. If not, state what you would’ve wanted the man to do after the shove. 

I just found it a strange comment. Like if I stabbed you and you fell down then shot me from the ground I could say well I wasn't stabbing you when you shot me! 

If you stabbed someone and they fell to the ground and you were backing away, then under most definitions of self-defense they wouldn’t be justified in shooting you (cops operate under slightly different rules). Admittedly, this could change 180 degrees depending on many small factors, but in the simple situation you used as an example, that’s how it works. 

Lol. Dude I love you but zero people ever would get convicted for shooting someone who just stabbed them. Ever. 

I agree with you, but I think there are some big practical differences between the two. First, if someone stabs you, you can reasonably infer they’re most probably trying to kill you or do you serious bodily harm, but you can’t reasonably infer that from a shove.

Second, a stabbing is serious enough that it’s unreasonable to expect the victim to totally keep their cool. In other words, some of the justifications that the trolls above are trying to apply to this case would actually apply in the case of a stabbing. I think if you decide to carry a gun it’s incumbent upon you to determine for yourself whether or not you can take a push to the ground without freaking out, and if you self-assess incorrectly then it’s on you. 

About the only thing that could get me to change my mind here would be if actual doctors testified that the shooter had a legit concussion. 

Of course a stabbing is totally different. Didn't think we needed to go down that rabbit hole. 

7/22/18 5:18 PM
12/2/05
Posts: 73415
SergesBeefyHopeFlaps -
Akkadian88 - 
Samoa -
effertime -

All the tough/big guys think he should just "throw them hands". Thats obviously what big or tough guys think, they prefer to have an advantage in a violent situation.

When a smaller or less athletic person pulls out a weapon, all of a sudden its not fair and he's a pussy. But of course, they never think they're being pussies when they're fighting people smaller than them. 

Dont be violent and you wont get shot, or stabbed or whatever. Simple.

 

 

Don’t provoke situations when you are carrying your gun. It’s in the training to get a CCW.  

Florida is a shall issue state. There is no training required. 


Yep you have to take a class.in Florida. 

7/22/18 5:23 PM
2/23/05
Posts: 11819
Fake Pie - 
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
pfsjkd -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
vincan469 -

so if the guy shot had been carrying and had feared for his wife safety could he have just walked up and shot the guy duirng the interaction with his wife?

No because that guy was saying things not assualting people. 

The person who was shot wasn’t assaulting anyone at the time he was shot. 

Well no one is doing anything at the moment they are shot beside getting shot. 

I’m not sure how that’s true. It’s certainly correct to say, in common language, something like “he was shot while advancing toward that man in a threatening manner”. 

Again, if you simply think that any shove opens one up to justifiable killing then just declare your strange view and be done with it. If not, state what you would’ve wanted the man to do after the shove. 

I just found it a strange comment. Like if I stabbed you and you fell down then shot me from the ground I could say well I wasn't stabbing you when you shot me! 

If you stabbed someone and they fell to the ground and you were backing away, then under most definitions of self-defense they wouldn’t be justified in shooting you (cops operate under slightly different rules). Admittedly, this could change 180 degrees depending on many small factors, but in the simple situation you used as an example, that’s how it works. 

Lol. Dude I love you but zero people ever would get convicted for shooting someone who just stabbed them. Ever. 

I agree with you, but I think there are some big practical differences between the two. First, if someone stabs you, you can reasonably infer they’re most probably trying to kill you or do you serious bodily harm, but you can’t reasonably infer that from a shove.

Second, a stabbing is serious enough that it’s unreasonable to expect the victim to totally keep their cool. In other words, some of the justifications that the trolls above are trying to apply to this case would actually apply in the case of a stabbing. I think if you decide to carry a gun it’s incumbent upon you to determine for yourself whether or not you can take a push to the ground without freaking out, and if you self-assess incorrectly then it’s on you. 

About the only thing that could get me to change my mind here would be if actual doctors testified that the shooter had a legit concussion. 

Of course a stabbing is totally different. Didn't think we needed to go down that rabbit hole. 


I disagree. I don't think the weapon is the issue. I think it boils down to imposition of one's will upon another person through the use of violence. That's it. No matter what the mode of delivery, in the end it is the violent ACT by one person against another that triggers the stand your ground or self defense laws.

What matters is the perception in a reasonable person's mind of danger. To my eyes an assault was in progress that justified any response necessary to neutralize the threat. You can argue all day the guy was moving back after the shove, that all he did was push the shooter down, etc...bullshit

That was an assault in progress plain and simple. The fact that so few of you recognize that makes me question how you lasted so long in life with such obviously poor survival instincts.

The bottom line is you have no idea what that guy was going to do next, 2 steps back, turn and leap, two steps back, draw his own weapon, two steps back, 3 steps forward.

You don't know. You weren't being attacked. The victim had every right and responsibility to neutralize an ongoing threat to his physical person and that's exactly what he did.

If that guy had not drawn and the other guy had stepped back, turned and charged him and beat him to death people would be saying "why didn't he draw and fire?" "He had plenty of time before the guy came at him again"

Shooter was right every step on the way
7/22/18 5:56 PM
3/13/17
Posts: 5178
holly9000 -
Fake Pie - 
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
pfsjkd -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
Piyo -
Fake Pie -
vincan469 -

so if the guy shot had been carrying and had feared for his wife safety could he have just walked up and shot the guy duirng the interaction with his wife?

No because that guy was saying things not assualting people. 

The person who was shot wasn’t assaulting anyone at the time he was shot. 

Well no one is doing anything at the moment they are shot beside getting shot. 

I’m not sure how that’s true. It’s certainly correct to say, in common language, something like “he was shot while advancing toward that man in a threatening manner”. 

Again, if you simply think that any shove opens one up to justifiable killing then just declare your strange view and be done with it. If not, state what you would’ve wanted the man to do after the shove. 

I just found it a strange comment. Like if I stabbed you and you fell down then shot me from the ground I could say well I wasn't stabbing you when you shot me! 

If you stabbed someone and they fell to the ground and you were backing away, then under most definitions of self-defense they wouldn’t be justified in shooting you (cops operate under slightly different rules). Admittedly, this could change 180 degrees depending on many small factors, but in the simple situation you used as an example, that’s how it works. 

Lol. Dude I love you but zero people ever would get convicted for shooting someone who just stabbed them. Ever. 

I agree with you, but I think there are some big practical differences between the two. First, if someone stabs you, you can reasonably infer they’re most probably trying to kill you or do you serious bodily harm, but you can’t reasonably infer that from a shove.

Second, a stabbing is serious enough that it’s unreasonable to expect the victim to totally keep their cool. In other words, some of the justifications that the trolls above are trying to apply to this case would actually apply in the case of a stabbing. I think if you decide to carry a gun it’s incumbent upon you to determine for yourself whether or not you can take a push to the ground without freaking out, and if you self-assess incorrectly then it’s on you. 

About the only thing that could get me to change my mind here would be if actual doctors testified that the shooter had a legit concussion. 

Of course a stabbing is totally different. Didn't think we needed to go down that rabbit hole. 


I disagree. I don't think the weapon is the issue. I think it boils down to imposition of one's will upon another person through the use of violence. That's it. No matter what the mode of delivery, in the end it is the violent ACT by one person against another that triggers the stand your ground or self defense laws.

What matters is the perception in a reasonable person's mind of danger. To my eyes an assault was in progress that justified any response necessary to neutralize the threat. You can argue all day the guy was moving back after the shove, that all he did was push the shooter down, etc...bullshit

That was an assault in progress plain and simple. The fact that so few of you recognize that makes me question how you lasted so long in life with such obviously poor survival instincts.

The bottom line is you have no idea what that guy was going to do next, 2 steps back, turn and leap, two steps back, draw his own weapon, two steps back, 3 steps forward.

You don't know. You weren't being attacked. The victim had every right and responsibility to neutralize an ongoing threat to his physical person and that's exactly what he did.

If that guy had not drawn and the other guy had stepped back, turned and charged him and beat him to death people would be saying "why didn't he draw and fire?" "He had plenty of time before the guy came at him again"

Shooter was right every step on the way

Coward.