OtherGround Forums Hong Kong general strike begins, shakes society

18 days ago
10/16/10
Posts: 28119
Proteus The Invincible - 
Stache - But why overthrow the capitalist class before China has fully industrialized? Why not wait like the CCP is doing?

Also, I thought it was permissible to have a state apparatus to manage the transition of the economy to the workers during the dictatorship of the proletariat? Why would you want to revolt against the CCP when they are serving that function?

The state apparatus in China is controlled by capitalists, whose primary objective is to prevent any transition to workers’ power. Under no circumstances whatsoever will the Chinese capitalist class, represented by the CCP, hand power to the Chinese or Hong Kong workers. They would sooner relinquish control of their country to the US military than allow the workers to take power.

 

The dictatorship of the proletariat is just that: a dictatorship of the working class. It is a state restructured in order to serve the interests of workers’ democracy, so that everything is administrated first and foremost by workers, in favour of workers, and at the expense of the enemies of workers, above all, the capitalists. The basic principles of a democratic workers’ state, outlined by Lenin in his text, State and Revolution, expose the diametric antagonism between the workers and the Chinese regime: all officials to be elected, with the right of immediate recall; no official to receive a wage higher than a skilled worker; the abolition of the police and military in favour of a workers’ militia; and the participation of all workers in the running of the state.

 

As far as waiting for the Chinese capitalists to further industrialise the country before overthrowing them, the country has already been massively industrialised amidst the advances of the planned economy under Mao and the boom period since the restoration of capitalism. Besides, the capitalist boom in China has ended and the country is now, along with the rest of the world, staggering towards economic collapse.

 

Furthermore, the policy of endless waiting, of endless subordination of the workers to the capitalists, is exactly the policy that has been put forward again and again and again by Stalinist parties all over the world, to utterly catastrophic consequences. Many of the greatest massacres and defeats of the working class throughout the 20th century, from China in the 1920s, to Indonesia in the 1960s, to the Vietnam War—the list goes on and on—have occurred as a direct result of Stalinist parties seeking to form alliances with the capitalists of their own countries in order to pursue industrialisation, only to immediately be betrayed and eradicated. It is a completely revisionist, anti-Marxist policy that has resulted in disaster every time it’s been tried.


Thanks Proteus. Obviously I disagree that the CCP are capitalists but I won't push the issue. And I share your disdain for Stalinists. You're no tankie, that's for sure. Ironically Xi would probably hate you more than me, although ultimately we would both end up in the laogai.
Edited: 18 days ago
10/16/10
Posts: 28120
Ok, one more question (or perhaps just a rephrasing of my earlier question) since you appear to be a Leninist who hates dictatorships:

Didn't Lenin, in "What is to be Done?", advocate for a vanguard party to serve as intellectual leaders of the revolutionary movement and to be responsible for establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat? As a result, isn't Lenin really the figure most responsible for the autocratic dictatorships that you blame in your last paragraph for true communism failing to materialize?



I mean, the CCP states very clearly in their constitution:

"The Communist Party of China is the vanguard both of the Chinese working class and of the Chinese people and the Chinese nation. It is the core of leadership for the cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics and represents the development trend of China's advanced productive forces, the orientation of China's advanced culture and the fundamental interests of the overwhelming majority of the Chinese people. The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of the Party."

https://china.usc.edu/constitution-communist-party-china
18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20560

18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20561

The umbrellas they carry to ward off pepper spray gives this a Blade Runner vibe.

 

18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20562

18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20563

18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20564

18 days ago
4/27/14
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18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20566

18 days ago
2/4/06
Posts: 13732

MAGA! 

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 25200
ttt
18 days ago
11/28/09
Posts: 39729

Free Hong Kong!

18 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20567
BonedByPicograms* - 

Free Hong Kong!


No more communism!

Toss it on the trash heap of history where it beloings!

 

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 93409
fanat -

I have a feeling this is going to end very badly for Honk Kong and the rest of the world is going to say absolutely nothing. 

You calling someone a honkey?

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 93410

In all seriousness... This will most likely give the HK government an excuse to invite Chinese troops in

 

And then things will get really bad

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 113507
Soul Gravy - Everybody was kung fu fighting!

lol

10 days ago
3/11/11
Posts: 4290

The article below provides an update on the Hong Kong general strike movement.

 

Hong Kong: “path of no return” – either class struggle or defeat

Hong Kong’s earthshaking protest movement is entering its second month. Despite increasing pressure from Beijing and the Carrie Lam government, the movement still grows in militancy. It is graduating from bourgeois liberal methods towards the method of class struggle. In many ways, when Carrie Lam emerged from days of obscurity to respond to the general strike, she was right to say that the Hong Kong movement is heading towards a “path of no return.”

 

The Hong Kong masses are pressing ahead to overcome the acute social contradictions created by the capitalist system, despite the myriad of confusion introduced by all sorts of nefarious elements. Yet, without a Marxist political leadership, a class struggle perspective, and a socialist programme, the reactionary fetters introduced by bourgeois liberal and reformist leaders will become an absolute fetter to the advancement of the working-class interests of the Hong Kong masses as a whole.

 

On Monday, 5 August, the Hong Kong masses strived to make history, as a general strike was attempted. The last, fully realised general strike in the city took place in 1925 against the iron heel of British imperialism.

 

Historical developments and material circumstances, along with Stalinist and reformist betrayals, deprived generations of the Hong Kong working class from a fighting experience and organisation for a long period. In this early stage of grasping for a method and strategy, the current movement, unfortunately, found themselves in a dangerous and disorientating confluence with pro-western imperialist public figures’ slogans, perspectives, and interests.

 

The course of the struggle up to this point highlights the urgent necessity for a sharp class differentiation to take place.

 

[...]

 

A path to victory, or a road to defeat

The Chinese government is attempting to avoid direct intervention by the PLA for now. This would risk spreading the movement to the mainland, which is precisely what Beijing wants to avoid. Yet, it is unlikely that Beijing will opt to grant any concessions to the movement, economic or political. During the second HKMAO press conference, a CCP state spokesperson attributed the large presence of youths in Hong Kong’s protest, not to dire economic contradictions, but due to “poor patriotic education” or Hong Kong youths’ “lack of interaction with the rest of China and the world.” This is necessary because the fiction that ”One Country, Two Systems” has brought prosperity to Hong Kong’s masses needs to be maintained. China also cannot afford to set an example of granting large-scale welfare or democratic reforms to Hong Kong when capitalism is also plunging the rest of the country into the very same social contradictions happening in Hong Kong.

 

The Hong Kong police will likely be the mailed fist against the movement when it shows any sign of decline. Hong Kong’s government already purchased riot trucks from France, equipped with water cannon. The Hong Kong police, co-led by British-born Chief superintendent Rupert Dover, is openly advertising a staining technology on its official facebook to warn that any protester would be stained with ink that would help the police identify them for days afterwards.

 

Thus, Beijing and the Hong Kong government will bide their time, continually increasing pressure via the Hong Kong police, and counting on liberal public figures and the lack of class struggle leadership to steer the movement into confusion and demoralisation. After which, fierce political repression will be unleashed.

 

The only way out of this scenario is to broaden the movement into mainland China. Marxists welcome the calls for more strike and the masses’ willingness to continue the fight, but the struggle needs to not only elevate to a higher organisational level, with the formation of a strike committee from representatives elected by all Hong Kong workers and youths who are participating in the struggle, but also actively broaden the struggle itself beyond Hong Kong.

 

Any honest, consistent democrats, youths and socialists in Hong Kong must immediately begin propaganda towards the broader Chinese masses to counter the government’s slander in Mandarin Chinese, and clearly include the daily economic needs of mainland Chinese workers into their own programme and demands. They also need to openly criticise and marginalise their current liberal and reformist leadership, to steer the movement into a consistent class struggle with a socialist programme that provides a solution to housing, income and all economic crises that afflict working people across East Asia. Any anti-Chinese, anti-Communist, or pro-Western imperialist sentiments must be immediately repudiated and jettisoned, for they will only bring the movement towards destruction.

 

Read the full article using the link below:

https://www.marxist.com/hong-kong-path-of-no-return-either-class-struggle-defeat.htm

10 days ago
3/2/11
Posts: 45944

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

Edited: 10 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20634
ChaosOverkill - 

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

 

The goal-post shifting by Proteus is epic!

I give him credit for not supporting the communist overlords, however.

MHKGA!

 

10 days ago
3/11/11
Posts: 4291
ChaosOverkill -

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

The irony of this quoted post is that it is exactly the same propaganda spread by the Chinese regime: the CCP is communist, state-run companies are communist, the Hong Kong movement isn’t a movement of the working class and poor against capitalism, but an anti-communist, pro-imperialist riot, etc. You have sided with the Chinese regime, defending it by repeating its lies, and you don’t even know it.

10 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20636
Proteus The Invincible - 
ChaosOverkill -

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

The irony of this quoted post is that it is exactly the same propaganda spread by the Chinese regime: the CCP is communist, state-run companies are communist, the Hong Kong movement isn’t a movement of the working class and poor against capitalism, but an anti-communist, pro-imperialist riot, etc. You have sided with the Chinese regime, defending it by repeating its lies, and you don’t even know it.


The Hong Kong protestors are anti-capitalism like your ass chews gum.

10 days ago
3/2/11
Posts: 45945
Proteus The Invincible -
ChaosOverkill -

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

The irony of this quoted post is that it is exactly the same propaganda spread by the Chinese regime: the CCP is communist, state-run companies are communist, the Hong Kong movement isn’t a movement of the working class and poor against capitalism, but an anti-communist, pro-imperialist riot, etc. You have sided with the Chinese regime, defending it by repeating its lies, and you don’t even know it.

Hong Kong right now: "BETTER DEAD THAN RED"

Still laughing at you.

10 days ago
1/1/12
Posts: 11525

Wheres Godzilla when you need him

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 9025
The Stewed Owl -
Proteus The Invincible - 
ChaosOverkill -

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

The irony of this quoted post is that it is exactly the same propaganda spread by the Chinese regime: the CCP is communist, state-run companies are communist, the Hong Kong movement isn’t a movement of the working class and poor against capitalism, but an anti-communist, pro-imperialist riot, etc. You have sided with the Chinese regime, defending it by repeating its lies, and you don’t even know it.


The Hong Kong protestors are anti-capitalism like your ass chews gum.

Why are they waving US flags if they are anti-capitalist? Isn't America basically synonymous with capitalism in China?

Edited: 10 days ago
4/27/14
Posts: 20638
mestregruber - 
The Stewed Owl -
Proteus The Invincible - 
ChaosOverkill -

Nope

It's still not a communist revolution and China is still a communist garbage pile no matter what shift in language you marxists use to pretend those companies aren't state run.

Still laughing at you reds.

The irony of this quoted post is that it is exactly the same propaganda spread by the Chinese regime: the CCP is communist, state-run companies are communist, the Hong Kong movement isn’t a movement of the working class and poor against capitalism, but an anti-communist, pro-imperialist riot, etc. You have sided with the Chinese regime, defending it by repeating its lies, and you don’t even know it.


The Hong Kong protestors are anti-capitalism like your ass chews gum.

Why are they waving US flags if they are anti-capitalist? Isn't America basically synonymous with capitalism in China?

 

The Hong Kongers are also the ur-Capitalists of Asia. They have a high standard of living as a result . Why would they want to give that up?