OtherGround Forums Is the run on guns and ammo on?

5 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 6464
Surgeon308 - 

Dryfly 45/70 is one fun gun to shoot. And it’s pretty damn cheap and easy to reload. 


Very fun to shoot...for a few shots. Not something to run a hundred rounds thru in one session though.


Used to reload, mostly shotgun shells. May have to see about getting back into it. $3 per shot adds up quick.

Edited: 5 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 6465
topteam71 - 
TXExpat -
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
gregbrady -
TXExpat -
gregbrady -

what semi-automatic 308 rifle would you guys recommend?

for what purpose?

 

much more likely to be used to hunt than any kind of self-defense scenario but I still want it to be able to take bigger mags than a browning automatic rifle. a general use rifle really

Gotcha. Well a lot will depend on your budget but I'll give you a few options, low to high:

On the lower cost end I'd look at the Palmetto State offerings. They'll generally run around $1k and even with lower end parts build a pretty solid rifle for the money. If you've got more to spend I'd have a look at the Daniel Defense or Lewis Machine & Tool offerings. Both are very solid firearms and getting into one will run you in the mid to high $2k range. If you're a true OGer and you've got more money than Scrooge McDuck then I'd order up a LaRue PredatOBR and be done with it. It'll run about double what a DD will cost you but they're guaranteed to be more accurate than the guy holding it.

Personally I'd stick with an 18" barrel on any .30 AR rifle but you can usually find 16 and 20" offerings if longer or shorter really floats your boat; also, when you say 'hunting' that could mean a lot of different things so weight or additional FPS or accuracy at longer distances may or may not be a critical factor.


Would be foolish to have a hunting rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

22 or 24 inch is far more realistic for hunting purposes.

Unless you are a tree-stand type hunter.

My damn bow may out-shoot your 16 inch barreled rifle at 100 yards.

Either you have no experience with long guns or archery or you're just out of your mind altogether. The very best Olympic archers in the world (of which you are most assuredly not) would have a difficult time holding groups that my AK will hold at 100 yards and it's not a particularly accurate rifle. Before you can make any statements on what would, or would not, be foolish you ought to know what you're talking about. An average carbine length AR10 would be mechanically effective enough to hunt plenty of North American game in 'average' circumstances. 

I'm not saying it would be my preferred firearm for the task but there's nothing foolish about it if he's buying it just to have around and maybe thinks he might go shoot some pigs or a whitetail with it sometime. 

This is true. Short Barrel length does not mean it is inaccurate. 


Yes it kind of does. Back up another couple hundred yards, shoot it and get back to me.

A short barrel is accurate only at shorter distances than the same damn gun with a much longer barrel.

This is not an opinion. It is a long known fact.

I live in the Rock Mountains. Guys regularly shoot 400-500 yards plus here while hunting. You are not doing that with a 16 inch barrel. End of story.
5 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 87255
TXExpat - 
Fake Pie -

Another question. Say I want a carbine. Should I get a 9mm since that's what my handguns are or should I get a 10mm because... Well because 10mm america fuck yeah. 

I guess a little bit of the answer would depend on the purpose of the carbine but from a practical perspective having it share ammunition, or for true defensive practicality magazines, with your handgun is a huge plus. I don't think I'd add a new cartridge into my collection just for a pistol carbine but, while I do think they're pretty fun to shoot, I think their practicality is somewhat limited. 


Yeah that's how I was leaning. Thanks! Looking at the Aero Survival 9mm.

5 days ago
7/2/11
Posts: 336
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
gregbrady -
TXExpat -
gregbrady -

what semi-automatic 308 rifle would you guys recommend?

for what purpose?

 

much more likely to be used to hunt than any kind of self-defense scenario but I still want it to be able to take bigger mags than a browning automatic rifle. a general use rifle really

Gotcha. Well a lot will depend on your budget but I'll give you a few options, low to high:

On the lower cost end I'd look at the Palmetto State offerings. They'll generally run around $1k and even with lower end parts build a pretty solid rifle for the money. If you've got more to spend I'd have a look at the Daniel Defense or Lewis Machine & Tool offerings. Both are very solid firearms and getting into one will run you in the mid to high $2k range. If you're a true OGer and you've got more money than Scrooge McDuck then I'd order up a LaRue PredatOBR and be done with it. It'll run about double what a DD will cost you but they're guaranteed to be more accurate than the guy holding it.

Personally I'd stick with an 18" barrel on any .30 AR rifle but you can usually find 16 and 20" offerings if longer or shorter really floats your boat; also, when you say 'hunting' that could mean a lot of different things so weight or additional FPS or accuracy at longer distances may or may not be a critical factor.


Would be foolish to have a hunting rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

22 or 24 inch is far more realistic for hunting purposes.

Unless you are a tree-stand type hunter.

My damn bow may out-shoot your 16 inch barreled rifle at 100 yards.

Either you have no experience with long guns or archery or you're just out of your mind altogether. The very best Olympic archers in the world (of which you are most assuredly not) would have a difficult time holding groups that my AK will hold at 100 yards and it's not a particularly accurate rifle. Before you can make any statements on what would, or would not, be foolish you ought to know what you're talking about. An average carbine length AR10 would be mechanically effective enough to hunt plenty of North American game in 'average' circumstances. 

I'm not saying it would be my preferred firearm for the task but there's nothing foolish about it if he's buying it just to have around and maybe thinks he might go shoot some pigs or a whitetail with it sometime. 


I may have spent as many days in my life bow-hunting, as you have in months being alive for.

Don't know your age but it is possible.

If you think a 16 inch barrel makes a "hunting" gun...you are a damn fool. Why are folks lugging around far longer barrels, if 16 inches will do it, just for fun?

If you count all hunting. I have almost certainly hunted for far longer than you have lived.

A. You're obviously fairly challenged with your reading comprehension skills. If you'll actually look at the post I was replying to you'll understand that he was specifically asking about higher capacity semis, not a hunting rifle. There's no 22" to 24" barrel choices in AR rifles so try to use whatever reading comprehension skills you do posses to follow the basic premise of what's being discussed; or just keep your mouth shut so you don't sound like a dolt. He's not asking about hunting rifles. He's asking for advice on MSRs chambered for the .308. Does that clear things up for you?

B. Ignoring the fact that you dove into a topic you didn't really understand, you really don't know what you're talking about anyway. I've been hunting, both archery and firearms, for well over 40 years, so unless you're pushing 60, you're out of luck on that particular bit of grandstanding... You're a fucking idiot if you actually think a carbine rifle can't kill a fucking whitetail at 100 yards because the barrel is only 16". That's literally one of the most moronic proclamations I've ever heard. Some people don't lug them around hunting for any number of reasons but it isn't because the firearm isn't mechanically accurate enough at minimal distances and plenty of people do use them for hunting when wildlife code doesn't prohibit it... You should probably go out and shoot more because it sounds like you probably need to work on some shooting fundamentals if you can't hold a 5" group with a carbine at 100...

5 days ago
5/1/16
Posts: 789
TXExpat -
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
gregbrady -
TXExpat -
gregbrady -

what semi-automatic 308 rifle would you guys recommend?

for what purpose?

 

much more likely to be used to hunt than any kind of self-defense scenario but I still want it to be able to take bigger mags than a browning automatic rifle. a general use rifle really

Gotcha. Well a lot will depend on your budget but I'll give you a few options, low to high:

On the lower cost end I'd look at the Palmetto State offerings. They'll generally run around $1k and even with lower end parts build a pretty solid rifle for the money. If you've got more to spend I'd have a look at the Daniel Defense or Lewis Machine & Tool offerings. Both are very solid firearms and getting into one will run you in the mid to high $2k range. If you're a true OGer and you've got more money than Scrooge McDuck then I'd order up a LaRue PredatOBR and be done with it. It'll run about double what a DD will cost you but they're guaranteed to be more accurate than the guy holding it.

Personally I'd stick with an 18" barrel on any .30 AR rifle but you can usually find 16 and 20" offerings if longer or shorter really floats your boat; also, when you say 'hunting' that could mean a lot of different things so weight or additional FPS or accuracy at longer distances may or may not be a critical factor.


Would be foolish to have a hunting rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

22 or 24 inch is far more realistic for hunting purposes.

Unless you are a tree-stand type hunter.

My damn bow may out-shoot your 16 inch barreled rifle at 100 yards.

Either you have no experience with long guns or archery or you're just out of your mind altogether. The very best Olympic archers in the world (of which you are most assuredly not) would have a difficult time holding groups that my AK will hold at 100 yards and it's not a particularly accurate rifle. Before you can make any statements on what would, or would not, be foolish you ought to know what you're talking about. An average carbine length AR10 would be mechanically effective enough to hunt plenty of North American game in 'average' circumstances. 

I'm not saying it would be my preferred firearm for the task but there's nothing foolish about it if he's buying it just to have around and maybe thinks he might go shoot some pigs or a whitetail with it sometime. 


I may have spent as many days in my life bow-hunting, as you have in months being alive for.

Don't know your age but it is possible.

If you think a 16 inch barrel makes a "hunting" gun...you are a damn fool. Why are folks lugging around far longer barrels, if 16 inches will do it, just for fun?

If you count all hunting. I have almost certainly hunted for far longer than you have lived.

A. You're obviously fairly challenged with your reading comprehension skills. If you'll actually look at the post I was replying to you'll understand that he was specifically asking about higher capacity semis, not a hunting rifle. There's no 22" to 24" barrel choices in AR rifles so try to use whatever reading comprehension skills you do posses to follow the basic premise of what's being discussed; or just keep your mouth shut so you don't sound like a dolt. He's not asking about hunting rifles. He's asking for advice on MSRs chambered for the .308. Does that clear things up for you?

B. Ignoring the fact that you dove into a topic you didn't really understand, you really don't know what you're talking about anyway. I've been hunting, both archery and firearms, for well over 40 years, so unless you're pushing 60, you're out of luck on that particular bit of grandstanding... You're a fucking idiot if you actually think a carbine rifle can't kill a fucking whitetail at 100 yards because the barrel is only 16". That's literally one of the most moronic proclamations I've ever heard. Some people don't lug them around hunting for any number of reasons but it isn't because the firearm isn't mechanically accurate enough at minimal distances and plenty of people do use them for hunting when wildlife code doesn't prohibit it... You should probably go out and shoot more because it sounds like you probably need to work on some shooting fundamentals if you can't hold a 5" group with a carbine at 100...

My Sig AR with a 16 inch barrel and 62 grain can drive tacks at 100 yards . Groups a little more than 2 .5 inches . 

Edited: 5 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 87259

I think you guys got into a silly back and forth over a hyperbolic claim about a bow vs. a 16" but just my 2c as someone with no experience hunting really anything besides birds (and barely that).

But yeah it is pretty silly to say 16" is near useless at 100yds. I think the army qualifies people on the m4 (14.5") at 300, 200 and 100 yards... obviously not that relevant but I felt like looking.

5 days ago
12/31/19
Posts: 852
Dryfly -
TheHerps - 
Dryfly -
TheHerps - 


if you already have an AR-15 and want to step up your hunting vs buying a new 308, load these up...

Would not shoot at an elk or a moose sized animal with a .223

And a 70 grain bullet? Illogical as hell.
Double that at a minimum.

It’s an all copper type of round.  I’m pretty sure you can hit and elk or moose in the brain bucket with one.

Or maybe just shoot a deer.


You are not a hunter are you? Who the fuck goes for a "brain" shot while hunting?

You need to re-evaluate everything if you are resorting to that.

I’m talking end of the World situation.  Not a normal hunt.  

5 days ago
8/15/18
Posts: 265

Texas here: gun stores have seen a run on guns and ammo.  I worked for one up until two weeks ago.  I’ll be the GM of a new gun shop in May. 4K sq foot, not huge, but inventory will be good.  Hopefully things are okay by then.  From what I’ve heard from friends and read and seen in the news. stores are near zero inventory and everything is on back order. Good thing the store were opening has a large inventory already. And ammo.  Wish me luck OG bro’s 

5 days ago
3/17/14
Posts: 22800
TXExpat -
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
gregbrady -
TXExpat -
gregbrady -

what semi-automatic 308 rifle would you guys recommend?

for what purpose?

 

much more likely to be used to hunt than any kind of self-defense scenario but I still want it to be able to take bigger mags than a browning automatic rifle. a general use rifle really

Gotcha. Well a lot will depend on your budget but I'll give you a few options, low to high:

On the lower cost end I'd look at the Palmetto State offerings. They'll generally run around $1k and even with lower end parts build a pretty solid rifle for the money. If you've got more to spend I'd have a look at the Daniel Defense or Lewis Machine & Tool offerings. Both are very solid firearms and getting into one will run you in the mid to high $2k range. If you're a true OGer and you've got more money than Scrooge McDuck then I'd order up a LaRue PredatOBR and be done with it. It'll run about double what a DD will cost you but they're guaranteed to be more accurate than the guy holding it.

Personally I'd stick with an 18" barrel on any .30 AR rifle but you can usually find 16 and 20" offerings if longer or shorter really floats your boat; also, when you say 'hunting' that could mean a lot of different things so weight or additional FPS or accuracy at longer distances may or may not be a critical factor.


Would be foolish to have a hunting rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

22 or 24 inch is far more realistic for hunting purposes.

Unless you are a tree-stand type hunter.

My damn bow may out-shoot your 16 inch barreled rifle at 100 yards.

Either you have no experience with long guns or archery or you're just out of your mind altogether. The very best Olympic archers in the world (of which you are most assuredly not) would have a difficult time holding groups that my AK will hold at 100 yards and it's not a particularly accurate rifle. Before you can make any statements on what would, or would not, be foolish you ought to know what you're talking about. An average carbine length AR10 would be mechanically effective enough to hunt plenty of North American game in 'average' circumstances. 

I'm not saying it would be my preferred firearm for the task but there's nothing foolish about it if he's buying it just to have around and maybe thinks he might go shoot some pigs or a whitetail with it sometime. 


I may have spent as many days in my life bow-hunting, as you have in months being alive for.

Don't know your age but it is possible.

If you think a 16 inch barrel makes a "hunting" gun...you are a damn fool. Why are folks lugging around far longer barrels, if 16 inches will do it, just for fun?

If you count all hunting. I have almost certainly hunted for far longer than you have lived.

A. You're obviously fairly challenged with your reading comprehension skills. If you'll actually look at the post I was replying to you'll understand that he was specifically asking about higher capacity semis, not a hunting rifle. There's no 22" to 24" barrel choices in AR rifles so try to use whatever reading comprehension skills you do posses to follow the basic premise of what's being discussed; or just keep your mouth shut so you don't sound like a dolt. He's not asking about hunting rifles. He's asking for advice on MSRs chambered for the .308. Does that clear things up for you?

B. Ignoring the fact that you dove into a topic you didn't really understand, you really don't know what you're talking about anyway. I've been hunting, both archery and firearms, for well over 40 years, so unless you're pushing 60, you're out of luck on that particular bit of grandstanding... You're a fucking idiot if you actually think a carbine rifle can't kill a fucking whitetail at 100 yards because the barrel is only 16". That's literally one of the most moronic proclamations I've ever heard. Some people don't lug them around hunting for any number of reasons but it isn't because the firearm isn't mechanically accurate enough at minimal distances and plenty of people do use them for hunting when wildlife code doesn't prohibit it... You should probably go out and shoot more because it sounds like you probably need to work on some shooting fundamentals if you can't hold a 5" group with a carbine at 100...

Dont take Dryfly seriously. He talks out of his ass half the time in these topics. I provided a video about bushcrafting/long term wilderness survival that was about an hour long.

Not only did he not watch the video but he made comments about the person in the video being a moron and cited him (the video) making claims that he never made.

For example the guy in the video talked about using handcrank radio rather then a battery fed radio. Dryfly then comes out of left field and says something along the lines of "that guy in the video is a moron if he thinks batteries are good for anything long term". Proving that Dryfly either does not have good comprehension skills or just likes to talk down to people.

I provided a time stamp for the video proving the guy in the video didnt say what Dryfly claimed he said. Did Dryfly admit fault? No...he went on a rant about the guy again in the video. This time taking issue with the guy using a camp saw to process wood, saying camp saws were not good long term and will be done within a few days.

I then provide another time stamp of the man in the video saying the camp saw was for processing wood quickly if you needed it due to harsh weather and that he had an axe aswell when speed and calorie burning is not so much you are worried about. 

Again, did Dryfly admit fault and not actually watching the video? No...just made a claim about living in the mountains forever if need be and how hes and expert.

 

Closing, he either does not read what you actually say or his comprehension skills have degraded after spending so much time in the mountains but mostly just likes to talk down to people. 

5 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 87263

Can't we all just get along? Lot's of people giving awesome info in this thread that I really appreciate.

Edited: 5 days ago
3/17/14
Posts: 22801
Fake Pie - Can't we all just get along? Lot's of people giving awesome info in this thread that I really appreciate.

As a lawyer I didnt think you would have "cant we all just get along" as a sentence you could possibly say.

5 days ago
12/2/05
Posts: 87266
BruteDion -
Fake Pie - Can't we all just get along? Lot's of people giving awesome info in this thread that I really appreciate.

As a lawyer I didnt think you would have "cant we all just get along" as a sentence you could possibly say.

I love that saying lol. Ole Rodney. 

5 days ago
12/31/19
Posts: 853

Just picked up 1000 SS109 bullets.  Score!

5 days ago
7/2/11
Posts: 337
Fake Pie -
TXExpat - 
Fake Pie -

Another question. Say I want a carbine. Should I get a 9mm since that's what my handguns are or should I get a 10mm because... Well because 10mm america fuck yeah. 

I guess a little bit of the answer would depend on the purpose of the carbine but from a practical perspective having it share ammunition, or for true defensive practicality magazines, with your handgun is a huge plus. I don't think I'd add a new cartridge into my collection just for a pistol carbine but, while I do think they're pretty fun to shoot, I think their practicality is somewhat limited. 


Yeah that's how I was leaning. Thanks! Looking at the Aero Survival 9mm.

No personal experience with that Aero Survival but I like what I see. Anytime you can pack a long gun into a backpack, or something else equally innocuous, you've given yourself a very nice defensive upgrade option if you're ever stuck in a bad situation. If your handgun isn't a Glock 17, 19 or 26 then that is something I would highly consider from a defensive standpoint, especially if you do a lot of road traveling and can legally posses these things in the places you're going. There's a lot to be said for having a more formidable defensive capability on hand if you ever need it. 

5 days ago
12/31/19
Posts: 857


is this a legit load?
5 days ago
1/9/02
Posts: 51273

.357 lever action is the only carbine you need

5 days ago
1/9/02
Posts: 51274

I like the Springfield M1A socom a lot but apparently a .308 out of a 16 barrel is only good for rabbits and archery contests. what a sweet rifle

5 days ago
7/2/11
Posts: 338
TheHerps -


is this a legit load?

Ramshot lists a starting load of 22.5 grains up to a maximum of 25 grains for a 62g bullet for a .223 load. If you use the 5.56 data you get about an extra grain at both the low and the high end.

https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

Personally, I'd start closer to the lower end and work up from there. If you're getting good accuracy and good function with less, then there's not much of a reason to push it out of the .223 specs. If it's not cycling reliably then you will definitely need to go higher. 

5 days ago
4/18/06
Posts: 12004
Dryfly - 
TXExpat - 
Dryfly -
TXExpat - 
gregbrady -
TXExpat -
gregbrady -

what semi-automatic 308 rifle would you guys recommend?

for what purpose?

 

much more likely to be used to hunt than any kind of self-defense scenario but I still want it to be able to take bigger mags than a browning automatic rifle. a general use rifle really

Gotcha. Well a lot will depend on your budget but I'll give you a few options, low to high:

On the lower cost end I'd look at the Palmetto State offerings. They'll generally run around $1k and even with lower end parts build a pretty solid rifle for the money. If you've got more to spend I'd have a look at the Daniel Defense or Lewis Machine & Tool offerings. Both are very solid firearms and getting into one will run you in the mid to high $2k range. If you're a true OGer and you've got more money than Scrooge McDuck then I'd order up a LaRue PredatOBR and be done with it. It'll run about double what a DD will cost you but they're guaranteed to be more accurate than the guy holding it.

Personally I'd stick with an 18" barrel on any .30 AR rifle but you can usually find 16 and 20" offerings if longer or shorter really floats your boat; also, when you say 'hunting' that could mean a lot of different things so weight or additional FPS or accuracy at longer distances may or may not be a critical factor.


Would be foolish to have a hunting rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

22 or 24 inch is far more realistic for hunting purposes.

Unless you are a tree-stand type hunter.

My damn bow may out-shoot your 16 inch barreled rifle at 100 yards.

Either you have no experience with long guns or archery or you're just out of your mind altogether. The very best Olympic archers in the world (of which you are most assuredly not) would have a difficult time holding groups that my AK will hold at 100 yards and it's not a particularly accurate rifle. Before you can make any statements on what would, or would not, be foolish you ought to know what you're talking about. An average carbine length AR10 would be mechanically effective enough to hunt plenty of North American game in 'average' circumstances. 

I'm not saying it would be my preferred firearm for the task but there's nothing foolish about it if he's buying it just to have around and maybe thinks he might go shoot some pigs or a whitetail with it sometime. 


I may have spent as many days in my life bow-hunting, as you have in months being alive for.

Don't know your age but it is possible.

If you think a 16 inch barrel makes a "hunting" gun...you are a damn fool. Why are folks lugging around far longer barrels, if 16 inches will do it, just for fun?

If you count all hunting. I have almost certainly hunted for far longer than you have lived.


You aren’t really sure about what you’re talking about. Barrel length is a function of velocity, if you’re getting velocity through another your barrel length is less important. Hunting rounds are based on 3 functions- velocity, weight and projectile construction.

Velocity and weight dictate terminal ballistics or impact energy and the bullet construction transfers the energy avail to a semi solid piece of matter. Hopefully meat.

If you can push a 77gr pill out of a 16” barrel at 2650 FPS based on your load, vs 2725 out of a 22” barrel, you aren’t losing enough energy transfer to be concerned about. So why would a lighter more maneuverable rifle be less desirable for hunting?


For who asked what I load 223 with, it varies. I load a lot of the hornady 55gr fmjbt rounds for hosing up close because it’s cheap. I use a lot of Sierra 69 and 77gr projectiles over varget, sometimes RL15. I like ball powders because they meter easily but the rod powders like varget are less temperature sensitive.
5 days ago
4/18/06
Posts: 12005
And barrel length is definitely not a function of accuracy.

Only velocity, which can be mistaken for accuracy if you don’t understand ballistics.

5 days ago
11/10/18
Posts: 6741
Dryfly -
Eskimo - 
Dryfly -

Surgeon308 -

"1000 rds of .40 for about $120"



I literally laughed out load when I read this. Not because you are wrong, or that I disagree, or even anything at all to do with most any of this thread.

Just the fact that yesterday I spent $120 + tax on exactly 40 rounds of Buffalo Bore ammo for a .45/70.

Quite the damn difference for two similar things that go bang. LMAO

I have a Henry 45/70 and shoot the buffalo bore ammo. Good stuff, but yeah it’s pricey


Try some from Garrett. Very similar in cost, but different grains of bullets are available.

They have a 540 grain super hard cast bullet that is downright beastly.

I like the 405 grain from Buffalo Bore the best though.

I’ll check that out, thanks. 

5 days ago
12/31/19
Posts: 859
TXExpat -
TheHerps -


is this a legit load?

Ramshot lists a starting load of 22.5 grains up to a maximum of 25 grains for a 62g bullet for a .223 load. If you use the 5.56 data you get about an extra grain at both the low and the high end.

https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

Personally, I'd start closer to the lower end and work up from there. If you're getting good accuracy and good function with less, then there's not much of a reason to push it out of the .223 specs. If it's not cycling reliably then you will definitely need to go higher. 

Thanks for pointing me to their data.  I’m ordering a hard copy now.

5 days ago
12/31/19
Posts: 860


I think TAC will be my go to powder. plus I can use it to load up some hot Barnes TSX 110 GR 308.
5 days ago
5/1/16
Posts: 790


5 days ago
5/1/16
Posts: 791
gregbrady -

I like the Springfield M1A socom a lot but apparently a .308 out of a 16 barrel is only good for rabbits and archery contests. what a sweet rifle

   I didn’t know Springfield offered less than lethal options. I found this breakdown of .308 with different barrel lengths very informative. But I’m not that knowledgeable about gun stuff . 
 

308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO: Barrel Length versus Velocity (28? to 16.5?)