OtherGround Forums Secret Service vs. US Marshalls!!

9/17/20 8:17 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 11567

Worked at the USMS HQ as a lowly guy in the congressional and public affairs office for a bit back in the day. Full blown white collar shit, but I did have some pretty cool experiences getting to know all the different corners of the Service.

Most likely if Marshals are going to execute a warrant on 1600 Penn it will be through communications channels first to try and work out a discreet transfer out of public view with minimal fuss and muss. Then send a couple of guys physically to serve ask him to remand himself, out of SOP. Probably if they have to go ask under congressional mandate, where POTUS has been non-compliant and they know it's if at least in image a shoving match, I would think they'll send another couple guys in to ask nice again, with a team or teams from the USMS Special Operations group in Louisiana staged nearby on standby if they need a show of force. Or need actual force.

Most likely all the extremely hardcore defenses are against assault on the perimeter. For example there are probably no pintles and concrete hardpoints inside the building.

If they let the Marshals warrant team and their tactical Special Operations backup inside the perimeter during the initial final last nice ask, thinking that it's just a show of force that they're going to turn away easily. Then that makes the job a lot easier but still not easy.

Then it actually becomes a gunfight crew against crew. Problem is it's always harder to be the assaulter versus the defender in a situation where you have a place that is prepared and trained for potential assault.

Unless there is an outrageous overmatch in manpower and skills, and it's able to be employed from multiple angles of entry, I see it as a losing equation for the assaulting Marshals even if they have a team of former tier 1 guys.

Assault, assaulters lose or pay an extremely heavy price. This is one where you besiege in place and use attrition. With congressional mandate, all you have to do is wait it out. With Congress and the majority of the public against the president, eventually the tide will turn, especially as Congress puts the VP in the top slot due to the situation and then technically primary secret service allegiance would stop being to Trump.

I think regular line secret service has a ton of ex cops, and ex regular line Mil.. and maybe a few guys sprinkled in from the Agency, bureau HRT, and SO, but other than the size limited SS tactical team on standby, I don't think the defending secret service force on premises is possessing of any super-powered skill beyond any other similarly composed force of mostly ex civilian law enforcement.

What they will possess, is training, procedures, and equipment to defend the specific premises you are assaulting. Hence the need for a really big over match in multiple dimensions unless you want a huge blood bath youre on the losing end of.

9/17/20 8:22 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 11568

Oh yeah and you'll have to have a breaching crew to penetrate whatever safe room he has, or be able to lock down the underground route to the emergency bunker, otherwise he's going to squirt away.

9/17/20 8:29 PM
4/21/10
Posts: 49651
arclight -

Worked at the USMS HQ as a lowly guy in the congressional and public affairs office for a bit back in the day. Full blown white collar shit, but I did have some pretty cool experiences getting to know all the different corners of the Service.

Most likely if Marshals are going to execute a warrant on 1600 Penn it will be through communications channels first to try and work out a discreet transfer out of public view with minimal fuss and muss. Then send a couple of guys physically to serve ask him to remand himself, out of SOP. Probably if they have to go ask under congressional mandate, where POTUS has been non-compliant and they know it's if at least in image a shoving match, I would think they'll send another couple guys in to ask nice again, with a team or teams from the USMS Special Operations group in Louisiana staged nearby on standby if they need a show of force. Or need actual force.

Most likely all the extremely hardcore defenses are against assault on the perimeter. For example there are probably no pintles and concrete hardpoints inside the building.

If they let the Marshals warrant team and their tactical Special Operations backup inside the perimeter during the initial final last nice ask, thinking that it's just a show of force that they're going to turn away easily. Then that makes the job a lot easier but still not easy.

Then it actually becomes a gunfight crew against crew. Problem is it's always harder to be the assaulter versus the defender in a situation where you have a place that is prepared and trained for potential assault.

Unless there is an outrageous overmatch in manpower and skills, and it's able to be employed from multiple angles of entry, I see it as a losing equation for the assaulting Marshals even if they have a team of former tier 1 guys.

Assault, assaulters lose or pay an extremely heavy price. This is one where you besiege in place and use attrition. With congressional mandate, all you have to do is wait it out. With Congress and the majority of the public against the president, eventually the tide will turn, especially as Congress puts the VP in the top slot due to the situation and then technically primary secret service allegiance would stop being to Trump.

I think regular line secret service has a ton of ex cops, and ex regular line Mil.. and maybe a few guys sprinkled in from the Agency, bureau HRT, and SO, but other than the size limited SS tactical team on standby, I don't think the defending secret service force on premises is possessing of any super-powered skill beyond any other similarly composed force of mostly ex civilian law enforcement.

What they will possess, is training, procedures, and equipment to defend the specific premises you are assaulting. Hence the need for a really big over match in multiple dimensions unless you want a huge blood bath youre on the losing end of.

You live in a fantasy land. Do yourself a favor and watch the documentary "Olympus Has Fallen" to see how an actual assault on the White House would go down. 

9/17/20 9:04 PM
6/27/05
Posts: 29410
arclight -

Oh yeah and you'll have to have a breaching crew to penetrate whatever safe room he has, or be able to lock down the underground route to the emergency bunker, otherwise he's going to squirt away.

Squirters...legit

9/17/20 9:12 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 6224

Your repeated obsession with “full auto” is showing holes in your game.  
 

Full auto is only cool in belt feds, useless in most other applications 

Edited: 9/17/20 9:26 PM
1/7/12
Posts: 3

 

9/17/20 9:43 PM
3/17/14
Posts: 25372
John Cable -
BruteDion -

I wonder if there is a tier level with the SS. I know one chick who's in the SS and while shes a good shot, shes in no way impressive physically. Just a normal chick who goes to the gym regularly. She however is not stationed in Washington. Shes in Ohio currently and has only ever been there.

So I'm thinking that the ones who are in DC and around the president all the time are the best of the best and everyone else around the nation are just there for back up when the president comes to town.

 

a lot of them work counterfeit money and money laundering. very sharp. very fucking smart. some of the best interviewers I have ever seen. 

That would make sense. She is pretty smart and had schooling all the time it seemed.

9/17/20 11:48 PM
6/22/11
Posts: 6
John Cable - 
heshmat - I once saw a fight between a group of veteran Marshal’s and rookie SS agents. Didn’t end well for the SS guys.


 

where and when did this happen. and why was I not notified in advance? 


Many years ago at a bar in Georgia!
9/17/20 11:57 PM
3/16/06
Posts: 22332

Half my interactions with the Marshals have been very impressive. They helped us apprehend a murder suspect in Mexico. Also tracked a murder suspect across several states with social media and phone pings. The other half of the time, they were a total clown show. I once saw them go into a house for a fugitive, have a negligent discharge into the dining table, then they had a taser ND into the suspect's face while pulling him out of a wall he somehow crawled into. Afterwards, they had the audacity to hold a press conference about their great work but cut it short when a reporter started asking about the gunfire reported by neighbors, lol.

Feds often lack street experience and it shows. The best Feds are usually local street cops who switched over. 

9/18/20 12:33 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 80674
heshmat - I once saw a fight between a group of veteran Marshal’s and rookie SS agents. Didn’t end well for the SS guys.


What movie was it?

9/18/20 12:39 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3742
Jedburgh1 -

Your repeated obsession with “full auto” is showing holes in your game.  
 

Full auto is only cool in belt feds, useless in most other applications 

 

 

Im gonna disagree  with ya. The present negative attitude towards full auto is administrative and liability influenced. Economic influence as well, ammo consumption.  

go back and study military conflict and take note of when machine gun nest or pillbox is presented as a real  fucking problem!

Im sure the beast of Normandy would have been just as effective with a fucking AR semi auto as he was a MG. So sick of hearing that shit. Face it if you are in a unit without full auto, it is because they dont respect you or  trust you with it. They wont ever tell you that. 

 

full auto dominates . it is very accurate and effective in the right hands.  

 

I was just speaking of what I observed active units carrying. 

 

9/18/20 12:43 AM
4/30/08
Posts: 3218

I have no idea who the "Marshalls" are, but the U.S.Marshals would not do well in a shoot-out against the Secret Service.  USSS are generally better shots, have higher physical standards (USMS doesn't require you to pass the PT anymore after you graduate the academy, only participate in the PT test) and probably much smarter.  

 

Source: I literally just left USMS 2 pay periods ago for another agency after serving as a DUSM for over 17 years...

9/18/20 12:48 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3743
heshmat -
John Cable - 
heshmat - I once saw a fight between a group of veteran Marshal’s and rookie SS agents. Didn’t end well for the SS guys.


 

where and when did this happen. and why was I not notified in advance? 


Many years ago at a bar in Georgia!

 

sounds like a shitload of fun. lol

9/18/20 12:49 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3744
Floppy Divac -
heshmat - I once saw a fight between a group of veteran Marshal’s and rookie SS agents. Didn’t end well for the SS guys.


What movie was it?

 

ha

9/18/20 12:51 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3745
Muay Tired -

I have no idea who the "Marshalls" are, but the U.S.Marshals would not do well in a shoot-out against the Secret Service.  USSS are generally better shots, have higher physical standards (USMS doesn't require you to pass the PT anymore after you graduate the academy, only participate in the PT test) and probably much smarter.  

 

Source: I literally just left USMS 2 pay periods ago for another agency after serving as a DUSM for over 17 years...

 

pardon spelling. 

what is DUSM? 

9/18/20 12:57 AM
4/30/08
Posts: 3219
John Cable -
Muay Tired -

I have no idea who the "Marshalls" are, but the U.S.Marshals would not do well in a shoot-out against the Secret Service.  USSS are generally better shots, have higher physical standards (USMS doesn't require you to pass the PT anymore after you graduate the academy, only participate in the PT test) and probably much smarter.  

 

Source: I literally just left USMS 2 pay periods ago for another agency after serving as a DUSM for over 17 years...

 

pardon spelling. 

what is DUSM? 

DUSM = Deputy United States Marshal 

Edited: 9/18/20 1:01 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3746
Stupidnewbie -

Half my interactions with the Marshals have been very impressive. They helped us apprehend a murder suspect in Mexico. Also tracked a murder suspect across several states with social media and phone pings. The other half of the time, they were a total clown show. I once saw them go into a house for a fugitive, have a negligent discharge into the dining table, then they had a taser ND into the suspect's face while pulling him out of a wall he somehow crawled into. Afterwards, they had the audacity to hold a press conference about their great work but cut it short when a reporter started asking about the gunfire reported by neighbors, lol.

Feds often lack street experience and it shows. The best Feds are usually local street cops who switched over. 

 

hey everybody has a bad night. maybe that is the story. You know like the asp baton crack right in the ear, of course the target was the upper shoulder wink wink nudge nudge. he ducked . fuck even mike tyson misses on moving targets

 

one of our neighboring teams had a real shit show one night. guy got in a wrestling match on a no knock with an asshole while holding his HK 53. ended up dumping about a half a clip of .223 FULL AUTO thru the ceiling whoops. one of his buddys ended the wrasslin match by conking the asshole right in the fucking back of the skull with a huge SL 30 metal flashlight for the win. I would hate to be TL on that. Be typing for 3 days. 

9/18/20 1:00 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3747
Muay Tired -
John Cable -
Muay Tired -

I have no idea who the "Marshalls" are, but the U.S.Marshals would not do well in a shoot-out against the Secret Service.  USSS are generally better shots, have higher physical standards (USMS doesn't require you to pass the PT anymore after you graduate the academy, only participate in the PT test) and probably much smarter.  

 

Source: I literally just left USMS 2 pay periods ago for another agency after serving as a DUSM for over 17 years...

 

pardon spelling. 

what is DUSM? 

DUSM = Deputy United States Marshal 

 

kool. 

 

impressive

Edited: 9/18/20 1:30 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3748
Jedburgh1 -

Your repeated obsession with “full auto” is showing holes in your game.  
 

Full auto is only cool in belt feds, useless in most other applications 

 

I noticed you said "most other" applications. 

hey I  respect your experience. I understand that semi auto is the standard now for a battle rifle. 

 

But just from what I know and what I shot. I would much rather have full auto if I had a choice. strapped in prone or from a good combat stance leaning forward it is a lot of lead . 

 

My issue sub gun for about 5 years was an MP5. full fucking auto. i would not have changed it for the world. shooting it as instructed by Phil Singleton ( one of HKs primary instructors) you can really get down accurately. I could dump a 30 round clip full auto ( not bursts) in a group the size of an orange in CQB distances. Not easy and towards the end of the clip, just about to  get pushed backwards a stagger step. 

 

Singleton was British SAS. he was at the Iranian embassy raid. 

 

I mean why would you not opt for full auto if you could get it? 

9/18/20 8:15 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 6225

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

9/18/20 8:21 AM
4/11/05
Posts: 5130

Easy answer:  we, the viewers in other countries, win... Would be fucking hilarious. 

9/18/20 2:12 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3749
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

ok man. it is still a handful at full auto. 

it is not the only full auto I shot. 

 

This will age me. at first we had AC-556s. lol..

 

those were some thunder sticks in full auto lmfao. fucking loud as fuck in short barrel. hurt even outdoors. 

 

we had some .45 subguns too. were not thompsons. cant remember what they were called. starts with an R. Those were bad ass. loved them. Like a thompson except no pistol grip, wood stock. stick mags no drums. 

9/18/20 2:19 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 21627
John Cable - 
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

ok man. it is still a handful at full auto. 

it is not the only full auto I shot. 

 

This will age me. at first we had AC-556s. lol..

 

those were some thunder sticks in full auto lmfao. fucking loud as fuck in short barrel. hurt even outdoors. 

 

we had some .45 subguns too. were not thompsons. cant remember what they were called. starts with an R. Those were bad ass. loved them. Like a thompson except no pistol grip, wood stock. stick mags no drums. 




You sure is wasn't the Thompson M1 ?
9/18/20 2:33 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3750
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

 

are you still in military? 

 

hey think about if everybody in a squad had full auto, and what it would do to a treeline or a hillside if everybody lit it up at the same time? would that not have an effect? 

 

we all know how important it is to be accurate. but in reality isnt there a lot of dudes shooting at shit they cant see well. ?

9/18/20 2:40 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3751
onepunchJD -
John Cable - 
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

ok man. it is still a handful at full auto. 

it is not the only full auto I shot. 

 

This will age me. at first we had AC-556s. lol..

 

those were some thunder sticks in full auto lmfao. fucking loud as fuck in short barrel. hurt even outdoors. 

 

we had some .45 subguns too. were not thompsons. cant remember what they were called. starts with an R. Those were bad ass. loved them. Like a thompson except no pistol grip, wood stock. stick mags no drums. 




You sure is wasn't the Thompson M1 ?

It is on the tip of my tongue. name of the brand started with an R. rutger rikers rucker some shit like that . they were fucking awesome. I was really pissed when they took those from us. fukin fags. 

 

we also had . GET THIS.! I think it was a dozen or so M-14s full auto RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh. 

 

and then they retired them. they used them for honor guard. got dayum what a rifle. they still have them locked in a safe. They could easily get 10 grand each for them. they are so fucking stupid though. They would probably throw away or have them cut in half when forced to do so.They gave our MP-5s away basically . some kind of convenient even trade for semi M4s. fuuuuuucck. Those were early series german made HK MP s. immaculate condition . we took great care with those. always in padded case. clean as a dinner plate.