OtherGround Forums Secret Service vs. US Marshalls!!

9/18/20 2:45 PM
7/5/13
Posts: 1076

I’ve worked with USSS, they are top notch.

9/18/20 2:53 PM
11/5/03
Posts: 22934
"They had tracked the perps cell phone to within 5 meters. they can find you."

That's not exactly S.H.I.E.L.D clearance level 10 the last decade or so.

9/18/20 2:53 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3752
arclight -

Worked at the USMS HQ as a lowly guy in the congressional and public affairs office for a bit back in the day. Full blown white collar shit, but I did have some pretty cool experiences getting to know all the different corners of the Service.

Most likely if Marshals are going to execute a warrant on 1600 Penn it will be through communications channels first to try and work out a discreet transfer out of public view with minimal fuss and muss. Then send a couple of guys physically to serve ask him to remand himself, out of SOP. Probably if they have to go ask under congressional mandate, where POTUS has been non-compliant and they know it's if at least in image a shoving match, I would think they'll send another couple guys in to ask nice again, with a team or teams from the USMS Special Operations group in Louisiana staged nearby on standby if they need a show of force. Or need actual force.

Most likely all the extremely hardcore defenses are against assault on the perimeter. For example there are probably no pintles and concrete hardpoints inside the building.

If they let the Marshals warrant team and their tactical Special Operations backup inside the perimeter during the initial final last nice ask, thinking that it's just a show of force that they're going to turn away easily. Then that makes the job a lot easier but still not easy.

Then it actually becomes a gunfight crew against crew. Problem is it's always harder to be the assaulter versus the defender in a situation where you have a place that is prepared and trained for potential assault.

Unless there is an outrageous overmatch in manpower and skills, and it's able to be employed from multiple angles of entry, I see it as a losing equation for the assaulting Marshals even if they have a team of former tier 1 guys.

Assault, assaulters lose or pay an extremely heavy price. This is one where you besiege in place and use attrition. With congressional mandate, all you have to do is wait it out. With Congress and the majority of the public against the president, eventually the tide will turn, especially as Congress puts the VP in the top slot due to the situation and then technically primary secret service allegiance would stop being to Trump.

I think regular line secret service has a ton of ex cops, and ex regular line Mil.. and maybe a few guys sprinkled in from the Agency, bureau HRT, and SO, but other than the size limited SS tactical team on standby, I don't think the defending secret service force on premises is possessing of any super-powered skill beyond any other similarly composed force of mostly ex civilian law enforcement.

What they will possess, is training, procedures, and equipment to defend the specific premises you are assaulting. Hence the need for a really big over match in multiple dimensions unless you want a huge blood bath youre on the losing end of.

 

good shit. 

9/18/20 2:56 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3753
iclimb513 - "They had tracked the perps cell phone to within 5 meters. they can find you."

That's not exactly S.H.I.E.L.D clearance level 10 the last decade or so.

 

care to expound? I was told they can ping to the size of a small bathroom distance. I was told that that night. I dunno? could it be bullshit? They found that dude and it was in a shithole. 

I could ping to 50-300 ft depending on the cell phone company. one exception, they dont cooperate with cops unless a warrant, and then it is just a tower hit they give you. 

9/18/20 4:45 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 21632
John Cable - 
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

 

are you still in military? 

 

hey think about if everybody in a squad had full auto, and what it would do to a treeline or a hillside if everybody lit it up at the same time? would that not have an effect? 

 

we all know how important it is to be accurate. but in reality isnt there a lot of dudes shooting at shit they cant see well. ?




You're talking about suppressive fire.


It's all situational.

Like a playbook.


What is appropriate for the environment/situation... etc.
9/18/20 5:20 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 6226

Yes I am “still in military”.  15 years, 8 deployments, Infantry and Special Forces.  

9/18/20 7:23 PM
8/7/07
Posts: 8159
onepunchJD -
John Cable - 
Jedburgh1 -

Now that would make sense if all you ever did was fire pistol ammo at 10m.  

 

 

are you still in military? 

 

hey think about if everybody in a squad had full auto, and what it would do to a treeline or a hillside if everybody lit it up at the same time? would that not have an effect? 

 

we all know how important it is to be accurate. but in reality isnt there a lot of dudes shooting at shit they cant see well. ?




You're talking about suppressive fire.


It's all situational.

Like a playbook.


What is appropriate for the environment/situation... etc.

A quote my brother said once as a take away from his deployments that always stuck with me lol.  Was..... "Suppressive fire  saves live, aimed fire takes them."

 

Also I will throw out arent the majority of the dudes that make up the CAT teams ex pipe hitter goon squad types that ended up in the USSS, basically to do shit like serve in roles like that? I imagine there is no shortage of them with the GWOT running for for a couple fucking decades now lol. 

 

There are some good stories about the CAT teams formation and stuff in Suprise Kill Vanish the book about the CIAs SAD units and stuff like that. The book goes all the way back to the days of the OSS Jedburghs and is a great read. 

9/18/20 7:43 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3776
Jedburgh1 -

Yes I am “still in military”.  15 years, 8 deployments, Infantry and Special Forces.  

 

 

Awesome! very impressive!

Edited: 9/18/20 8:09 PM
10/11/05
Posts: 50928

This is probably outside the spirit of your thread, but I don't quite understand your scenario, so I'm gonna put it out there:

Both organizations ultimately answer to the POTUS, not the House nor the Senate, nor any judge, so it doesn't seem this is remotely possible outside of a coup. In which case the winner is going to be the one that has the support of the military, & departmental superiority never comes into it. Either the Marshals have the full force of the military to invade, or the SS extract the POTUS to the nearest adequate military installation & the Marshals can go fuck themselves.

Constitutional scholars debate whether prosecution can happen at all; the most widely accepted conclusion is sequentialist, i.e. Congress must first impeach & remove from office, at which time neither the Service nor the Marshals answer to nor support, so this still can't happen in that case. And most Constitutional scholars agree there is no one who can (successfully) arrest the POTUS aside from the Senate's Sergeant at Arms, & that's only in the limited capacity of removing somebody from the Senate floor, similar to trespassing, to which the SS would cooperate & walk the POTUS out, as they are sworn to the Constitution as well.

So, with that in mind, can you flesh out your scenario better? I don't believe there's any way anything remotely close doesn't get answered on paper first, with everybody cooperating without a drop of blood shed.

That all said, in the spirit of your question, I don't expect there's any way the Marshals can organize to move on the White House without the Service knowing about it well in advance, & I don't expect the Marshals are privy to any of the details of the Service's SHTF extraction plans, so my prediction is the Service easily whisks the POTUS away without the Marshals knowing when or where.

9/18/20 8:22 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3778
BarkLikeADog -

This is probably outside the spirit of your thread, but I don't quite understand your scenario, so I'm gonna put it out there:

Both organizations ultimately answer to the POTUS, not the House nor the Senate, nor any judge, so it doesn't seem this is remotely possible outside of a coup. In which case the winner is going to be the one that has the support of the military, & departmental superiority never comes into it. Either the Marshals have the full force of the military to invade, or the SS extract the POTUS to the nearest adequate military installation & the Marshals can go fuck themselves.

Constitutional scholars debate whether prosecution can happen at all; the most widely accepted conclusion is sequentialist, i.e. Congress must first impeach & remove from office, at which time neither the Service nor the Marshals answer to nor support, so this still can't happen in that case. And most Constitutional scholars agree there is no one who can (successfully) arrest the POTUS aside from the Senate's Sergeant at Arms, & that's only in the limited capacity of removing somebody from the Senate floor, similar to trespassing, to which the SS would cooperate & walk the POTUS out, as they are sworn to the Constitution as well.

So, with that in mind, can you flesh out your scenario better? I don't believe there's any way anything remotely close doesn't get answered on paper first, with everybody cooperating without a drop of blood shed.

That all said, in the spirit of your question, I don't expect there's any way the Marshals can organize to move on the White House without the Service knowing about it well in advance, & I don't expect the Marshals are privy to any of the details of the Service's SHTF extraction plans, so my prediction is the Service easily whisks the POTUS away without the Marshals knowing when or where.

 

 

dang man. are you a college professor. ? 

 

some good points. I cant hash the scenario out anymore as it is just fun OG shit. A theoretical standoff between Marshals and USSS. OG shit. all in fun. Will never happen. 

just OG shit like a Navy Seal Team vs. an entire civil war army armed with muskets and a cannon. lol. 

9/18/20 8:24 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3779
John Cable -
Jedburgh1 -

Yes I am “still in military”.  15 years, 8 deployments, Infantry and Special Forces.  

 

 

Awesome! very impressive!

 

are you going to get that other 5 years or beyond? 

9/18/20 8:54 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 6227
John Cable -
John Cable -
Jedburgh1 -

Yes I am “still in military”.  15 years, 8 deployments, Infantry and Special Forces.  

 

 

Awesome! very impressive!

 

are you going to get that other 5 years or beyond? 

Sure am

9/18/20 9:07 PM
8/20/03
Posts: 155283

If hollywood has taught me anything, it's that Tatum Channing will win.

9/18/20 9:14 PM
2/12/14
Posts: 3785
Captain Canuck -

If hollywood has taught me anything, it's that Tatum Channing will win.

 

 

tatum would be on the USSS side. A lot of them could model. The countefeit investigators I met dressed to 10s. perfect. spit and polish. 

9/18/20 9:19 PM
10/11/05
Posts: 50933

To me, the more interesting question is: What happens if the POTUS straight up murders someone? Does the Secret Service take it upon themselves to cloister until the cabinet invokes the 25th &/or Congress impeaches & removes? What if the POTUS refuses? How does that play out?

9/19/20 12:01 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3787
BarkLikeADog -

To me, the more interesting question is: What happens if the POTUS straight up murders someone? Does the Secret Service take it upon themselves to cloister until the cabinet invokes the 25th &/or Congress impeaches & removes? What if the POTUS refuses? How does that play out?

 

I think it more likely Biden goes after Trump in a fit of rage after getting humiliated in a debate. What if Biden Takes out Trump in a display of old man silver back strength on national tv. Does Biden's team then scurry him off the stage and take him back to his Hiden place? 

 

Does Trump's SS goons take the whole lot of them down? Arrest Biden for old man tyranicide? And Bidens detail for aiding and concealing old man tyranicide?  

 

wtf

 

also , is this the fastest sinking of a semi successful thread in OG history? 

9/19/20 12:04 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3789

 

shaka laka shaka laka heeeey. 

 

7200 views not bad. Im gonna get a blue name one day if I dont get slambanned first. 

Edited: 9/19/20 12:04 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 21681
John Cable - 
BarkLikeADog - To me, the more interesting question is: What happens if the POTUS straight up murders someone? Does the Secret Service take it upon themselves to cloister until the cabinet invokes the 25th &/or Congress impeaches & removes? What if the POTUS refuses? How does that play out?

 

I think it more likely Biden goes after Trump in a fit of rage after getting humiliated in a debate. What if Biden Takes out Trump in a display of old man silver back strength on national tv. Does Biden's team then scurry him off the stage and take him back to his Hiden place? 

 

Does Trump's SS goons take the whole lot of them down? Arrest Biden for old man tyranicide? And Bidens detail for aiding and concealing old man tyranicide?  

 

wtf

 

also , is this the fastest sinking of a semi successful thread in OG history? 




LOL


They are both old, and Trump has the size advantage.

Biden might KO himself in the initial rush -- but if he didn't -- he would bounce off Trump's belly, and land in a heap of drool and confusion.



.
9/19/20 12:21 AM
10/11/05
Posts: 50939

"also , is this the fastest sinking of a semi successful thread in OG history? "

I was the first poster to respond to your OP in more than 24 hours, so if you're faulting me for tanking your thread, you're off base.

9/19/20 1:52 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 18210
Worked with both as a cop. Also seen a both at various shooting schools.

Marshals impressed me more. Always struck me as tough SOBs. Those task forces do some of the most dangerous shit in LE.

The Secret Service always seemed to prioritize appearance over everything else. The operation is less competent than it would appear.

A few years back, some clown fired a few rounds into the White House and it took them days to notice...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/white-house-shooting/

Among other things, they've made a bunch of horrible equipment decisions. They hung on to that DA/SA P229 in .357 Sig long after everyone else ditched it. One of their guys at a class I went to remarked "we have yesterday's technology tomorrow."

Secret Service brass has also fucked up a lot of other agencies. Up until 1986, member of the Secret Service had the choice to opt out of the federal government's retirement system and into the DC police and fire retirement system (no idea how they pulled this off).

This allowed these guys to retire and immediately take second federal government jobs.

Federal Air Marshals and CBP to name just two.

Remember the stories a few years back about air marshals getting made on every flight because they were being forced to wear business dress including ties? Guess who was responsible? Retired Secret Service agent.
9/19/20 1:55 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3799
BarkLikeADog -

"also , is this the fastest sinking of a semi successful thread in OG history? "

I was the first poster to respond to your OP in more than 24 hours, so if you're faulting me for tanking your thread, you're off base.

 

im not blaming you bro. you may be to educated to be on this one. 

9/19/20 2:01 AM
2/12/14
Posts: 3800
Gforce - Worked with both as a cop. Also seen a both at various shooting schools.

Marshals impressed me more. Always struck me as tough SOBs. Those task forces do some of the most dangerous shit in LE.

The Secret Service always seemed to prioritize appearance over everything else. The operation is less competent than it would appear.

A few years back, some clown fired a few rounds into the White House and it took them days to notice...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/white-house-shooting/

Among other things, they've made a bunch of horrible equipment decisions. They hung on to that DA/SA P229 in .357 Sig long after everyone else ditched it. One of their guys at a class I went to remarked "we have yesterday's technology tomorrow."

Secret Service brass has also fucked up a lot of other agencies. Up until 1986, member of the Secret Service had the choice to opt out of the federal government's retirement system and into the DC police and fire retirement system (no idea how they pulled this off).

This allowed these guys to retire and immediately take second federal government jobs.

Federal Air Marshals and CBP to name just two.

Remember the stories a few years back about air marshals getting made on every flight because they were being forced to wear business dress including ties? Guess who was responsible? Retired Secret Service agent.

 

 

coming back to this later. I have some questions about these. 

9/19/20 2:20 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 18212
Good deal.

For background, here is a link to a bill a few years back that would have extended the retirement scam to guys hired between 1984 and 1986 (it was never passed into law).

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRPT-112srpt205/html/CRPT-112srpt205.htm
9/19/20 3:07 AM
12/30/03
Posts: 22583

I had Marshalls wrongfully assume a friend of mine and I were the guys they were looking for one time. They were in flannel shirts trying to blend into the music festival that was going on at the time. They were all clearly cops. As we pass by them, my buddy says something like "Have a good day officers"

We were headed up the stair case when they came in behind us saying "Hey guys, is this where the party is?!  FREEZE US MARSHALLS" then stormed us 

We laughed and laughed while they kept calling him the wrong name. He repeatedly told them "Check my id, genius"

After 15 minutes of threats, they realize they were wrong when their radio's go off and other Marshall's were taking the actual suspect. 

Suddenly they got really "Aw shucks" and tried to joke with us at which point we told them they better get to the other arrest so we could go do drugs. They laughed. 

9/19/20 3:35 AM
2/13/16
Posts: 7274
John Cable -
Jedburgh1 -

Your repeated obsession with “full auto” is showing holes in your game.  
 

Full auto is only cool in belt feds, useless in most other applications 

 

I noticed you said "most other" applications. 

hey I  respect your experience. I understand that semi auto is the standard now for a battle rifle. 

 

But just from what I know and what I shot. I would much rather have full auto if I had a choice. strapped in prone or from a good combat stance leaning forward it is a lot of lead . 

 

My issue sub gun for about 5 years was an MP5. full fucking auto. i would not have changed it for the world. shooting it as instructed by Phil Singleton ( one of HKs primary instructors) you can really get down accurately. I could dump a 30 round clip full auto ( not bursts) in a group the size of an orange in CQB distances. Not easy and towards the end of the clip, just about to  get pushed backwards a stagger step. 

 

Singleton was British SAS. he was at the Iranian embassy raid. 

 

I mean why would you not opt for full auto if you could get it? 

Why do you keep saying clip...?