OtherGround Forums Should we ban Animal Farm and 1984?

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15184

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it” -George Orwell

Given that Orwell was the ultimate Democratic-socialist -- is there an element of cultural-marxism at play when we consider just how widespread his work is taught at public schools in America?

Or -- is it just that your average American has been brain-washed with the ol' "Fox News Socialism" -- where they fail to distinguish between the aspects of it that are troubling (anytime it's totalitarian) and the aspects of it that are not (when it's policy with a people-focus working in a democratic form of government)? 

I've always thought that America was really missing out on a stronger socialist contingent within our great democracy. How many Democratic-socialists do we have today? One independent in the Senate? A handful of young progressives in the House? 

I'm of the opinion that even if you don't understand Democratic-socialism, you can probably really appreciate Orwell's brilliant works that take aim at Stalinism, authoritarianism, fascism, and so on. So do we overlook his socialist leanings because of how he was arguably able to illustrate the faults of that strongman form of government better than anyone else?

 

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15185

Edited: 6 days ago
4/21/10
Posts: 50555

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15186
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

6 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 60329

You realise that Orwell snitched on actual communists, right?

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15187

Or fuck, at least between Phuckles and I: socialism isn't even the relevant point. Can you speak to the differences between a totalitarian and a democratic form of government? Because if we understand them both well enough -- then we should have no confusion about how and why socialism should be functioning in the latter, and how the former is always a failure no matter the particular political ideology the authoritarians champion. 

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15188
Squatdog - 

You realise that Orwell snitched on actual communists, right?


Why wouldn't he, and why would that be an epiphany to someone who champions democratic-socialism? 

6 days ago
4/21/10
Posts: 50556
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

I do. He may have been a champion for democratic socialism but he certainly was not doing the idea any favors in Animal Farm. That is what I just said, in my post, that I assume you read. 

6 days ago
3/20/15
Posts: 22438
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus - 

Or fuck, at least between Phuckles and I: socialism isn't even the relevant point. Can you speak to the differences between a totalitarian and a democratic form of government? Because if we understand them both well enough -- then we should have no confusion about how and why socialism should be functioning in the latter, and how the former is always a failure no matter the particular political ideology the authoritarians champion. 


My country of Canada used to be democratic socialist (close) but with the little Potator in, it's now totalitarian socialist...as he does what ever he wants, even with a minority government and a general lack of knowledge of what he's even doing.

6 days ago
5/29/18
Posts: 5175

Dude are you working on your writing for a novel or something?

 

Your threads are ridiculous.

 

We get it, you think you are smarter and more educated than all of us, even though you rely on your wife to bring home the paper while you troll a forum of people you dislike

6 days ago
5/29/18
Posts: 5176

Youre a good writer, as in you are good at filling pages with bullshit. I used to do the same thing for projects in high school.

6 days ago
5/29/18
Posts: 5177
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

Noone read OP past the first paragraph

6 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 107454
Yes and ban all of Mark Twain
6 days ago
6/20/13
Posts: 2763

because what AOC spouts as "democratic socialism" today is just socialism. do you think SHE has ever read an Orwell book in her life? it's the progression (see what i did there) of the definition of labels over time. kinda like when a hard r says "literally" now. you can argue until you're blue in the face about what "literally" means, but that doesn't change what the re-re meant when she said it. 

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15189
Phuckles - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

I do. He may have been a champion for democratic socialism but he certainly was not doing the idea any favors in Animal Farm. That is what I just said, in my post, that I assume you read. 


Do you know why he would be the most fierce critic of one-party socialist states, yet a huge proponent of democratic-socialism - Phuckles? 

6 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 71349

Book burners can go suck a D

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15190
RhinoHog - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus - 

Or fuck, at least between Phuckles and I: socialism isn't even the relevant point. Can you speak to the differences between a totalitarian and a democratic form of government? Because if we understand them both well enough -- then we should have no confusion about how and why socialism should be functioning in the latter, and how the former is always a failure no matter the particular political ideology the authoritarians champion. 


My country of Canada used to be democratic socialist (close) but with the little Potator in, it's now totalitarian socialist...as he does what ever he wants, even with a minority government and a general lack of knowledge of what he's even doing.


No shit? No checks and balances up there? One-party rule? No separation of powers and branches of government up north? 

I had no idea. 

6 days ago
4/21/10
Posts: 50557
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

I do. He may have been a champion for democratic socialism but he certainly was not doing the idea any favors in Animal Farm. That is what I just said, in my post, that I assume you read. 


Do you know why he would be the most fierce critic of one-party socialist states, yet a huge proponent of democratic-socialism - Phuckles? 

Since you want to sound smart I will bite. 

 

No, why?

6 days ago
4/21/10
Posts: 50558
NiteProwleR -

Book burners can go suck a D

The left is so close right now. I mean, they burnt Parler down with a smile on their face. 

6 days ago
5/29/18
Posts: 5178
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

I do. He may have been a champion for democratic socialism but he certainly was not doing the idea any favors in Animal Farm. That is what I just said, in my post, that I assume you read. 


Do you know why he would be the most fierce critic of one-party socialist states, yet a huge proponent of democratic-socialism - Phuckles? 

Stop being facetious and answer your own question.

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15191
RonysTorresIceBag - 

because what AOC spouts as "democratic socialism" today is just socialism. do you think SHE has ever read an Orwell book in her life? it's the progression (see what i did there) of the definition of labels over time. kinda like when a hard r says "literally" now. you can argue until you're blue in the face about what "literally" means, but that doesn't change what the re-re meant when she said it. 


If she is someone who values the American system of government, participates in it as designed -- like running for elected office and advocating for her policy platform among competing ideologies -- isn't she by definition a democratic socialist? 

Correct me if I'm wrong though. If she has been calling for an overthrow of the U.S. government and one-party rule -- I'm going to have to denouce her strongly. 

Edited: 6 days ago
6/13/03
Posts: 31811

6 days ago
12/5/17
Posts: 15192
Helluvah Guy - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Phuckles - 

Have you read either book? 1984 is a book against totalitarianism through and through. There is nothing democratic about the socialism in that book. It is purely aimed at the fear of being in a completely controlled society. If one could predict North Korea, Orwell did so in 1984.

Animal Farm takes a much stronger stab at socialism. While it starts democratically enough, that ends, and eventually there is a clear working and a ruling c.lass. The workers work, the pigs eat. For a "democratic socialist" Orwell sure does the ideology no favors in his books. I could give two shits what his leanings are, the books he wrote have proven prophetic and have strong messages that should not be ignored. 


Of course I have. Did you not read the OP, or do you not understand the difference between democratic socialism -- for which Orwell was one of the best known champions ever -- and totalitarian socialism?

I do. He may have been a champion for democratic socialism but he certainly was not doing the idea any favors in Animal Farm. That is what I just said, in my post, that I assume you read. 


Do you know why he would be the most fierce critic of one-party socialist states, yet a huge proponent of democratic-socialism - Phuckles? 

Stop being facetious and answer your own question.


I have. It's just not clicking for Phuckles and I assume it doesn't click for most people who consume information from an American right-wing infosphere, heh. 

6 days ago
5/29/18
Posts: 5179
Phuckles -
NiteProwleR -

Book burners can go suck a D

The left is so close right now. I mean, they burnt Parler down with a smile on their face. 

And every question PSL asks, he has a shit eating grin, knowing full well how he's going to respond regardless of how you do

6 days ago
6/17/17
Posts: 1386
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -

Or fuck, at least between Phuckles and I: socialism isn't even the relevant point. Can you speak to the differences between a totalitarian and a democratic form of government? Because if we understand them both well enough -- then we should have no confusion about how and why socialism should be functioning in the latter, and how the former is always a failure no matter the particular political ideology the authoritarians champion. 

Because the pigs started democratic and then went total ham on everyone....

Never give a socialist an inch.