OtherGround Forums Special Counsel for Trump/Russia Megathread

4/15/18 1:30 PM
2/22/11
Posts: 17905
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 

Edited: 4/15/18 2:07 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2467
Hammerstein -
HernanCortes - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 


One thing I'm very curious about is what, if anything, Mueller is looking into that took place in Russia/Ukraine (allegedly).

Regarding dead Russians or what?

4/15/18 3:00 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2470
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Hammerstein -
HernanCortes - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 


One thing I'm very curious about is what, if anything, Mueller is looking into that took place in Russia/Ukraine (allegedly).

Regarding dead Russians or what?

Burp

4/15/18 3:49 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2476
Hammerstein -
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus - 
Hammerstein -
HernanCortes - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 


One thing I'm very curious about is what, if anything, Mueller is looking into that took place in Russia/Ukraine (allegedly).

Regarding dead Russians or what?


Mostly the oligarchs, but some Russian political players as well. Like looking into that hooker in Thailand's story. Some of the targeted killings wouldn't be bad, either. Or whatever happened to Mifsud. I doubt we'll ever hear anything about any of that, but it would be interesting. I guess it depends on how good a job the Russians have done to cover tracks on their end if there's anything to find.

This is really just wishful thinking on my part, not pertinent unless something comes out in testimony or an indictment.

Deripaska is the only oligarch I’ve profiled.

Sounds like you boys are trying to get a little wild in here. 

Deripaska was referenced, casually, in a court filing for the first time by Mueller pointing to an “open source report”. Marcy did a great job analyzing as usual: 

https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/04/03/about-the-oleg-deripaska-reference-in-the-mueller-memo/

That can potentially be read as Mueller sort of pre-authorizing things to come, and Deripaska figuring into a direct conspiracy charge against Manafort is at the top of my list of likely indictments that are direct collusion.

She also corrects everyone who speculates that Mifsud is in hiding, or was snatched up by Russia by pointing out that it was the FBI that got the drop on Mifsud way back (months before the special counsel was appointed). So if Mifsud is a critical player — he could be right here in the US actively cooperating.

4/15/18 3:50 PM
12/27/06
Posts: 2861

Catch me up. Did they figure out how Russia hacked the election?

Edited: 4/15/18 3:59 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2477

The deaths are outside of my scope I think. CNN published a collection of all of them, but I question that kind of reporting. We just don’t have the means to properly investigate that kind of stuff, and it becomes a conspiratorial suggestion rather than the sort of careful extrapolation that I try to do here. 

But — maybe we should anyway. 

Mikhail Lesin’s death looks like it was clearly covered up (not carried out) by the FBI/DOJ. I consider that sort of thing to be pretty standard so I don’t get bent out of shape about it. If the Russian government kills a Kremlin insider while in the U.S. — there’s a chance that the U.S. will sort of write that off and consider it an intelligence matter. 

Buzzfeed has an ongoing investigative series on these killings including those connected to Steele:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system

Edited: 4/15/18 4:19 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2478
newnickname -

Catch me up. Did they figure out how Russia hacked the election?

No — that’s a misconception for hoopleheads. 

Sorry.

4/15/18 4:16 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2479
Hammerstein -
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus - 
Hammerstein -
HernanCortes - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 


One thing I'm very curious about is what, if anything, Mueller is looking into that took place in Russia/Ukraine (allegedly).

Regarding dead Russians or what?


Mostly the oligarchs, but some Russian political players as well. Like looking into that hooker in Thailand's story. Some of the targeted killings wouldn't be bad, either. Or whatever happened to Mifsud. I doubt we'll ever hear anything about any of that, but it would be interesting. I guess it depends on how good a job the Russians have done to cover tracks on their end if there's anything to find.

This is really just wishful thinking on my part, not pertinent unless something comes out in testimony or an indictment.

More on Mifsud will almost certainly come directly out of the investigation. 

Also Yevgeny Prigozhin needs a profile. He’s named in the IRA indictment and he’s going to fight it, which will be great for us. I assumed nothing would come of the IRA stuff, but his challenge will likely force Mueller’s team to reveal a lot more details in court.

4/15/18 4:55 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2481

^ I want to speculate mate. 

I just figured keeping things on this level helps to avoid all of the misconception and noise surrounding the investigation which causes so many to dismiss or overlook it. 

Clint Watts, who I declined to add to the Twitter feeds section because he wears a “dance like Russia isn’t watching shirt”, would be a good starting point I think. 

Forthcoming... 

 

4/15/18 6:32 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1403
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Hammerstein -
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus - 
Hammerstein -
HernanCortes - 
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
HernanCortes -

Pumpkin, what’s the word in the Russian deaths? Not much has been made public, but this dossier stuff is almost spot on. I heard one of the deaths was when Putin found out one agent was talking to Steele. The other 2 would be the people connected through...? Or am I missing something here 

Just noticed this. 

I’m not caught up on the Russian deaths. I think it might be too unknowable to really do much with, but I’ll take a closer look. 

Thanks, I’ve read into some and it’s speculative that Mueller may be looking into these dead ends (no pun intended). But it would be very significant 


One thing I'm very curious about is what, if anything, Mueller is looking into that took place in Russia/Ukraine (allegedly).

Regarding dead Russians or what?


Mostly the oligarchs, but some Russian political players as well. Like looking into that hooker in Thailand's story. Some of the targeted killings wouldn't be bad, either. Or whatever happened to Mifsud. I doubt we'll ever hear anything about any of that, but it would be interesting. I guess it depends on how good a job the Russians have done to cover tracks on their end if there's anything to find.

This is really just wishful thinking on my part, not pertinent unless something comes out in testimony or an indictment.

More on Mifsud will almost certainly come directly out of the investigation. 

Also Yevgeny Prigozhin needs a profile. He’s named in the IRA indictment and he’s going to fight it, which will be great for us. I assumed nothing would come of the IRA stuff, but his challenge will likely force Mueller’s team to reveal a lot more details in court.

How many high level contacts did misfud have in the U.K.? 

 

I think I read somewhere he has some possible connection the some other intelligence agencies in other countries. One, if I'm not mistaken, is Rome? 

 

Where is misfud nowadays?

4/15/18 6:37 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1404

 

Edited: 4/15/18 6:55 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2482
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -
Hammerstein - "he sent along press clippings that highlighted his new job. “How do we use to get whole,” Manafort emailed Kilimnik. “Has OVD operation seen?”"

That's insane.
 

Yeah. Worth noting that Kilimnik, Deripaska, and Manafort have all written and discussed these issues offering explanations.

| Konstantin Kilimnik |

Per Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Kilimnik

- Employed by Manafort's consulting firm in Ukraine

- 'Some reports say Kilimnik ran the Kiev office of Manafort's firm and was Manafort's right hand man in Kiev'

- Thought to be 'Person A' in Manafort/Gates court filings

- Alex van der Zwaan's sentencing memo claims that Rick Gates told him that Kilimnik was a former intelligence officer with the GRU. Mueller's filings also claim the FBI has made the same assessment.

--------------------------

So Manafort's communication was confirmed to have gone to Kilimnik. Deripaska has denied ever receiving it. Consider though that while Manafort is an innocent man at this point -- his track record might suggest that he's just the kind of guy who would deal in some dirt and lie about it. & if Kilimnik really is a GRU officer he's obviously lying. We can probably assume that Deripaska doesn't have much interest in telling the truth in his media op-eds either.

& since Rick Gates' plea deal we've seen these details emerge further in court filings; we've seen a report (one that could just be FBI gossip -- exercise caution) alleging that two Russian oligarchs have been stopped by the FBI at airports just recently for questioning -- one had his devices searched, and a third oligarch is being asked to interview with the special counsel (that's likely Oleg Deripaska, as they mentioned he hasn't traveled to the U.S. recently).

& we've seen Manafort's defense team strategically file lawsuits and work to get Mueller's team to reveal as much about existing and potential indictments as they can. Those filings are what have led so many commentators to conclude that there is almost certainly another superseding indictment coming for him, and it's plausibly going to involve some of this business being speculated on.

 

^Forgot this Russian was covered

4/15/18 7:05 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1406

Mind if i hijack the thread with some misfud stuff? One twitter thread from julian assange. 

4/15/18 7:05 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1407

Maybe in the other thread with the undermining might be a better place?

4/15/18 7:40 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2483
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Mind if i hijack the thread with some misfud stuff? One twitter thread from julian assange. 


Who am I?

Please.

I was going to mention the usual -- Mifsud is strongly referenced directly in an indictment, which indicates that the DOJ team has the evidence to argue their case. Location unknown.

I have seen the Assange theory and was going to include that in a response to your question.

WikiLeaks is listed in the Twitter feeds from page 1:

@wikileaks - They open governments. Possible independent intelligence outfit. Counter-views via Twitter related to investigation. Questionable support of conspiracy theories and fringe media during 2016 presidential campaign. Source of controversy related to potential collaborations on Hillary Clinton/DNC/Podesta data dumps. Must-read material.

^I added all of those Twitter links because they are valuable perspectives and having the different viewpoints in mind, imo, is crucial. WL is not just generally must-read material, despite my cautionary description above, but very relevant to the 2016 election and the topic of this thread. More to come for sure.

4/15/18 7:43 PM
1/25/07
Posts: 1910
NoNeed4aScreenName -

Mind if i hijack the thread with some misfud stuff? One twitter thread from julian assange. 

I don't see how Assange's word is valuable anymore after he got caught lying about the Seth Rich stuff. While making the claim that Seth Rich was a leaker he was conversing with Guccifer2,0 to get the hacked emails. That shows he is complicit in active measures; the Seth Rich story was created to create doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and Assange knowingly peddled this disinformation despite knowing it was bullshit.
4/15/18 7:55 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1408
Thelonious -
NoNeed4aScreenName -

Mind if i hijack the thread with some misfud stuff? One twitter thread from julian assange. 

I don't see how Assange's word is valuable anymore after he got caught lying about the Seth Rich stuff. While making the claim that Seth Rich was a leaker he was conversing with Guccifer2,0 to get the hacked emails. That shows he is complicit in active measures; the Seth Rich story was created to create doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and Assange knowingly peddled this disinformation despite knowing it was bullshit.

While he didn't outright claim he was the leaker since Assange tends to try and protect his sources I do agree he basically tried to insinuate that he was the leaker. 

 

To be honest we haven't seen evidence to prove otherwise yet. Watch the video PSL has posted with a discussion between Greenwald and Risen. Both very respected Pulitzer prizes both agree zero evidence has been provided. 

 

Most of what I was going to post has a source, most seem reliable. 

4/15/18 7:56 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1409
NoNeed4aScreenName -
Thelonious -
NoNeed4aScreenName -

Mind if i hijack the thread with some misfud stuff? One twitter thread from julian assange. 

I don't see how Assange's word is valuable anymore after he got caught lying about the Seth Rich stuff. While making the claim that Seth Rich was a leaker he was conversing with Guccifer2,0 to get the hacked emails. That shows he is complicit in active measures; the Seth Rich story was created to create doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and Assange knowingly peddled this disinformation despite knowing it was bullshit.

While he didn't outright claim he was the leaker since Assange tends to try and protect his sources I do agree he basically tried to insinuate that he was the leaker. 

 

To be honest we haven't seen evidence to prove otherwise yet. Watch the video PSL has posted with a discussion between Greenwald and Risen. Both very respected Pulitzer prizes both agree zero evidence has been provided. 

 

Most of what I was going to post has a source, most seem reliable. 

Sorry very little evidence 

4/15/18 8:01 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2484

^ Post the Mifsud theory from Assange. We can evaluate all of these things without having to come to a strong conclusion unless the evidence is conclusive.

Edited: 4/15/18 8:08 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1410

 

 

 

4/15/18 8:16 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2485

Who can unpackage the Assange response to Mifsud and the connected pieces?

Do the pieces he connects form a theory, or a story, and if so -- what is it?

4/15/18 8:20 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1412
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -

Who can unpackage the Assange response to Mifsud and the connected pieces?

Do the pieces he connects form a theory, or a story, and if so -- what is it?

I can see where he is going with it. Gonna be a coordinated effort between most likely u.k. and the u.s. to frame trump. Most likely part of the insurance policy we heard of. 

 

I think it will also tie more into the geopolitical stuff with syria as well as Russia. 

 

Personally I think it's all a big fucking shit show to keep with the plan that was supposed to happen if Hillary won. 

 

It's a stretch and gonna have to wait it out. As long as we don't get WW3 first 

4/15/18 8:28 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1413

I think there was just too much money involved in this syria thing. The pipeline will decrease euro countries reliance on the nat gas. 

 

Probably will give the saudi and their allies more power in the region as well. 

 

I'm sorry I didn't want to derail the thread with it. I just think there is more to this than the legal aspect which is why I mentioned earlier that I think more needs to be looked at than just the legal aspects. 

 

What was the saying about a good prosecutor? 

 

Anyway. I actually enjoy this thread and have learned quite a bit. Sorry again

Edited: 4/15/18 8:40 PM
12/5/17
Posts: 2486

That's a bold theory, no?

Think of George Papadopoulos... reference the very first person covered on page 1, post 1 -- the links for the indictment, the plea agreement, and some extra resources are included.

What is Mueller claiming about Papadopoulos? I don't find it to be a bold theory outlined in that indictment. It details a charge for falsifying information and identifies a certain professor, and makes claims that he had visited some officials in Moscow, that he told George they had some dirt on Clinton, and so on:

- 'Claimed that his interactions with an overseas professor [Joseph Mifsud - MIA], who defendant understood to have substantial connections to Russian government officials, occurred before defendant became a foreign policy advisor to the Campaign.'

- '... professor had told him about the Russians possessing "dirt" on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails," but stated multiple times that he learned that information prior to joining the Campaign.'

- '... further told investigating agents that the professor was "a nothing"... In truth and in fact, however, defendant understood that the professor had substantial connections to Russian government officials (and had met with some of those officials in Moscow immediately prior to telling defendant about the "thousands of emails" and, over a period of months, defendant repeatedly sought to use the professor's Russian connections in an effort to arrange a meeting between the Campaign and Russian government officials.'

That's it. Mueller is not charging George with a conspiracy. He's not identifying collusion in this indictment. He's claiming that this man lied about certain things, and he states "in truth and in fact" what the reality of the situation was. He then references seized communications, and statements from the accused.

So that's one thing.

Where we can go with that situation between George and the professor as a theory beyond those charges is another, and we do not have the evidence the DOJ claims to have, so we can just sort of speculate at this point.

That's another thing.

& Assange, I think, is making the most bold claims of all. He's just not coming out with it directly.

If we see a larger conspiracy formally emerge involving Mifsud -- do we think that it will require a body of evidence? The investigators claim that George attempted to delete Facebook communications and destroy other evidence. We can be pretty sure, given what we know of PRISM and beyond, that they have access to all of that.

We don't have to treat Assange's claims with that level of scrutiny. But let's say we try to clearly write out what Assange is claiming happened between intelligence agencies (considering that there's an established and very legal coordination between these intelligence agencies in general), and try to meet some sort of burden of proof. What does that look like, and what will be the probability that it's the truth?

4/15/18 8:42 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 1414
Pumpkin Spice Lazarus -

That's a bold theory, no?

Think of George Papadopoulos... reference the very first person covered on page 1, post 1 -- the links for the indictment, the plea agreement, and some extra resources are included.

What is Mueller claiming about Papadopoulos? I don't find it to be a bold theory outlined in that indictment. It details a charge for falsifying information and identifies a certain professor, and makes claims that he had visited some officials in Moscow, that he told George they had some dirt on Clinton, and so on:

- 'Claimed that his interactions with an overseas professor [Joseph Mifsud - MIA], who defendant understood to have substantial connections to Russian government officials, occurred before defendant became a foreign policy advisor to the Campaign.'

- '... professor had told him about the Russians possessing "dirt" on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails," but stated multiple times that he learned that information prior to joining the Campaign.'

- '... further told investigating agents that the professor was "a nothing"... In truth and in fact, however, defendant understood that the professor had substantial connections to Russian government officials (and had met with some of those officials in Moscow immediately prior to telling defendant about the "thousands of emails" and, over a period of months, defendant repeatedly sought to use the professor's Russian connections in an effort to arrange a meeting between the Campaign and Russian government officials.'

That's it. Mueller is not charging George with a conspiracy. He's not identifying collusion in this indictment. He's claiming that this man lied about certain things, and he states "in truth and in fact" what the reality of the situation was. He then references seized communications, and statements from the accused.

So that's one thing.

Where we can go with that situation between George and the professor as a theory beyond those charges is another, and we do not have the evidence the DOJ claims to have, so we can just sort of speculate at this point.

That's another thing.

& Assange, I think, is making the most bold claims of all. He's just not coming out with it directly.

If we see a larger conspiracy formally emerge involving Mifsud -- do we think that it will require a body of evidence? The investigators claim that George attempted to delete Facebook communications and destroy other evidence. We can be pretty sure, given what we know of PRISM and beyond, that they have access to all of that.

We don't have to treat Assange's claims with that level of scrutiny. But let's say we try to clearly write out what Assange is claiming happened between intelligence agencies (considering that there's an established and very legal coordination between these intelligence agencies in general), and try to meet some sort of burden of proof. What does that look like, and what will be the probability that it's the truth?

Its bold. Probably would have to have it's own thread to discuss with a very detailed timeline. 

 

I'm too lazy to put in that work though.