OtherGround Forums Why has support for socialism grown in US?

2/21/20 8:17 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 23985
Beninger -
ziggystardust -
anthonyMI -
Tomato Can - For many of the same reasons Trump is popular, honestly.

We've had 10+ years of solid economic growth that has generated massive wealth, but inequality has soared and working class people have seen next to none of the gains. Wage growth has not kept up with cost of living while corporate earnings and the stock market have broken record after record. People are looking for answers.

Basically this. People are mad at the neoliberal consensus that lasted from Nixon to Obama, though they blame their problems on different parts of it. Trumpian "economic nationalism" has a lot of the same appeal as leftist ideas. In the real world, that has mostly just meant his putting his name on NAFTA 2, but the messaging never changed.

As for "socialism" specifically, it is because the right has spent decades deriding every social program and healthcare reform as socialist so the word has been worn down into meaningless. They were told that supporting Canadian or Australian healthcare systems makes them a socialist so often that they started believing it, even if it isn't really true.

Another issue is the wide definition of "socialism". Critics are talking about Venezuelan populist socialism and Soviet era communism, while some supporters are just talking about Scandinavian social democracy.

There's no way you can discuss an issue if you don't even understand / accept that you're taking about different things. 

The definition is there, as it has been since its inception. It’s just another case of the left redefining a word because they don’t like/understand the meaning. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/amp/

No... They claim they want Scandinavian socialism (which is retarded since they’re Market economies) but if you listen to them speak most are calling for free shit. They truly honest ones are calling for nationalizing industry and wealth confiscation as well.

2/21/20 8:18 AM
8/11/12
Posts: 10510
gregbrady -

the disappearing middle >

ppl having a lower standard of living than their parents

all of the abuses of capitalism weve seen in the last 40 yrs, golden parachutes, whole towns being wiped out because factories get shipped to China to make an executive's bonus, Enron, Madoff, etc.

 

the kids coming up want nothing to do with the system that chewed up their factory worker dad and spit him out and have even less to offer him.

 

 

 

Well said mr Brady. 

2/21/20 8:19 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 48633
cheech -


This is a big part of it. Bad monetary policy affects the normal joe FAR more negatively then the rich. 

Edited: 2/21/20 8:26 AM
2/11/03
Posts: 40296

I also think income inequality is a HUGE HUGE issue hence socialistic aspects getting more popular. the dieing middle is a huge issue.

2/21/20 8:34 AM
12/28/04
Posts: 32070
cheech - 



But Stalin, Russia, commies, derp!

2/21/20 8:41 AM
10/30/05
Posts: 6348

Participation trophies and social media. 

2/21/20 8:42 AM
12/28/04
Posts: 32071
The real saddest thing of it all was Wall Street was happy to have collectivism when the working people bailed them out to the tune of near 1 TRILLION, and what has changed, not a damn thing. You could of had.. proper universal health care, a proper education system as opposed one of the worst of any 1st world nation, built your wall, and had BILLIONS to spare.
 
And this will happen all over again, and again, and again. And people wonder why others want to make a change instead of letting the corrupt and greedy run things.

 

2/21/20 8:51 AM
10/11/18
Posts: 1624
nek - 

Was reading Zned's thread about what Bloomberg said about the talking points during the last democratic debate ensuring that Trump will will re-election and it got me thinking about this question.  What would you say are the causes of it?


Activists taking over the School system and posing as teachers. Plus activists in the media glorifying it to kids as well.
2/21/20 8:58 AM
2/8/08
Posts: 4328
amadeus - 

Part of is people simply expect more. In 1980 almost no one had a VCR and certainly few had multiple tv’s. As the years progressed people have only become more materialistic. Multiple large screen tv’s, multiple gaming systems, multiple iPhones, the most expensive cars they can afford, etc... While capitalism and competition has made these products and services cheaper in many regards there are more of them to spend on. And when you see that people now consider phones and internet a human right is it really so shocking that they want more for free.


This.

When someone bought a new car in the neighborhood, everyone pretty much knew about it. It was a big deal.
We rarely went out to eat, and ordering pizza was kind of exciting.
If I drop my son off at school in the morning, kids are wearing really nice clothing, compared to when I was their age. It wasnt uncommon for most boys to have their knees blown out of their jeans. We wore those same jeans to baseball practice. Now, they have multiple practice uniforms.
The amount of money I spend on sports for my kid alone would have put my parents in debt.
2/21/20 8:59 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 35285
cheech - 



Groceries were almost free in 1998?
2/21/20 9:02 AM
6/3/03
Posts: 104499
Pesci's Pen -

Lazy, piece is shit people who have never faced any sort of real adversity are looking for handouts because they are led to believe they are victims of some imaginary evil capitalist devil. 
 

They call these people “Greg Bradys”

First post nails it. 

2/21/20 9:07 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 98151

We concentrated power in the federal government.  That gave the 535 people in Congress a lot of power; the power to regulate, which is the power to decide who gets ahead.  There people are constantly being pursued by hordes of lobbyists and special interests who want favorable regulations for their businesses, and unfavorable ones for their competitors. And quite often, if they wave enough money and favors around, they get it.  That hurts competition in the marketplace and helps corporations extract wealth from ordinary people.  Health insurance is a great example.  The health insurance industry is a bloated parasite on American society that has been entrenched by a system of regulation.  

Why has has support for socialism grown?  Because people intrinsically feel something about our current system is unfair, and they are right.  I strongly believe in free market principles and small government, but the only thing worse than big government is crony capitalism - which isn't real capitalism, it's state-assisted corporate wealth extraction.  This is why I am leaning in favor of socialized healthcare; not because I think that is the best way to run healthcare, but I think it would be better and fairer, than the shit system we have now.  

2/21/20 9:12 AM
4/9/16
Posts: 2351
dhughes -

Boredom.  There are so few real problems that people have to get creative and make up problems.

I could not agree more with this. 

2/21/20 9:21 AM
7/13/09
Posts: 16500
cheech -


 

Edited: 2/21/20 9:30 AM
11/9/10
Posts: 69462
gregbrady -

the disappearing middle >

ppl having a lower standard of living than their parents

all of the abuses of capitalism weve seen in the last 40 yrs, golden parachutes, whole towns being wiped out because factories get shipped to China to make an executive's bonus, Enron, Madoff, etc.

 

the kids coming up want nothing to do with the system that chewed up their factory worker dad and spit him out and have even less to offer him.

 

 

 

The disappearing middle is a myth. If the middle is disappearing it’s because of upward mobility. If not poverty would be increasing. It’s just not the case. The poverty rate has been relatively pretty steady for decades between 11 and 15% since the mid 60s. 

2/21/20 9:27 AM
11/9/10
Posts: 69463
Trust -

We concentrated power in the federal government.  That gave the 535 people in Congress a lot of power; the power to regulate, which is the power to decide who gets ahead.  There people are constantly being pursued by hordes of lobbyists and special interests who want favorable regulations for their businesses, and unfavorable ones for their competitors. And quite often, if they wave enough money and favors around, they get it.  That hurts competition in the marketplace and helps corporations extract wealth from ordinary people.  Health insurance is a great example.  The health insurance industry is a bloated parasite on American society that has been entrenched by a system of regulation.  

Why has has support for socialism grown?  Because people intrinsically feel something about our current system is unfair, and they are right.  I strongly believe in free market principles and small government, but the only thing worse than big government is crony capitalism - which isn't real capitalism, it's state-assisted corporate wealth extraction.  This is why I am leaning in favor of socialized healthcare; not because I think that is the best way to run healthcare, but I think it would be better and fairer, than the shit system we have now.  

So the answer is giving gov even more power and control?

Edited: 2/21/20 9:46 AM
11/9/10
Posts: 69464
cheech -

Cool now do TVs and computers. Reality is purchasing power is relative to each product or service. Wages also tend to grow. Minimum wage in LA in 96 $4.25. Minimum wage in LA today is $14.25. To really correctly gauge the impact of inflation on a persons purchasing power you would have to calculate how much work it would take to purchase the same good or service over time. 

2/21/20 9:34 AM
9/1/09
Posts: 6296

Don’t coddle children. They only demand more over time. 

2/21/20 9:36 AM
5/30/09
Posts: 18346
Heystro -

Dumbed down population and lazy people wanting more "free stuff". Not realizing tax payers (home, businesses, and property owners) foot the bill.

We foot the bill anyway. Pharma uses tax funded research to patent drugs then sell them on the market for high prices. Our tax dollars fund wars and bailouts. How have you benefited from the destruction in northern Syria? Other than getting a hard on when your heroes talk about it on Fox news. I'd much rather my tax dollars pay for healthcare and education than to pay wall Street bonuses and fund wars. But we're the lazy ones because we actually want our tax dollars to work for us

2/21/20 9:37 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 47557

WRONG

dems have always been socialist. this isn't the first time they were open about saying they are. 

after the red scare they walked back the label, but not their goals. goes as far back as Woodrow Wilson and certainly FDR. education has been taken over long enough, kids indoctrinated long enough, coupled with generation pussy being raised single mothers who coddled them to the point of no longer being self sufficient. perfect storm

2/21/20 9:37 AM
9/1/09
Posts: 6297
cheech -


All of these memes you’re posting are wrong. Post references for these numbers or shut the fuck up. You’re part of the problem. 

2/21/20 9:40 AM
5/28/12
Posts: 12333
cheech -


Just a half second Google search showed me this is bullshit on all accounts. Minimum wage is up over 400% on average

2/21/20 9:43 AM
6/12/13
Posts: 6737
Spider Rico -

Path of least resistance. 

Not just for people but the politicians pushing it. Let me take from you and give to another is easier than finding ways to grow something. 
 

2/21/20 9:53 AM
12/28/04
Posts: 32072
Spider Rico - 
Spider Rico -

Path of least resistance. 

Not just for people but the politicians pushing it. Let me take from you and give to another is easier than finding ways to grow something. 
 


You mean exact what the bankers did to you all?

2/21/20 10:02 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 4783
Beninger -
ziggystardust -
anthonyMI -
Tomato Can - For many of the same reasons Trump is popular, honestly.

We've had 10+ years of solid economic growth that has generated massive wealth, but inequality has soared and working class people have seen next to none of the gains. Wage growth has not kept up with cost of living while corporate earnings and the stock market have broken record after record. People are looking for answers.

Basically this. People are mad at the neoliberal consensus that lasted from Nixon to Obama, though they blame their problems on different parts of it. Trumpian "economic nationalism" has a lot of the same appeal as leftist ideas. In the real world, that has mostly just meant his putting his name on NAFTA 2, but the messaging never changed.

As for "socialism" specifically, it is because the right has spent decades deriding every social program and healthcare reform as socialist so the word has been worn down into meaningless. They were told that supporting Canadian or Australian healthcare systems makes them a socialist so often that they started believing it, even if it isn't really true.

Another issue is the wide definition of "socialism". Critics are talking about Venezuelan populist socialism and Soviet era communism, while some supporters are just talking about Scandinavian social democracy.

There's no way you can discuss an issue if you don't even understand / accept that you're taking about different things. 

The definition is there, as it has been since its inception. It’s just another case of the left redefining a word because they don’t like/understand the meaning. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/amp/

The point stands, that people are not necessarily discussing the same thing.

And you conveniently disregard anthonyMI's point that the right has used the term to demonize different aspects of the welfare state. Both sides are responsible for the broad meaning of the term.