Adrian Street -
Adrian Street -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys
maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!
50+ stolen bases in single season
17 HRs in one year
119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)
.338 for career.
was still over .320 at 41 when he retired.
the guy never stopped hitting.
He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.
I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan
I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.
no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+
He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.
Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?
The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was .482
In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.
Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).
As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.
Fielding and speed are nowhere near as valuable as offense. They just dont contribute as much to winning games. Ichuro was a tremendous fielder and base runner. But Gwynn was definitely good in those areas--50+ steal seasons, five golden gloves. Ichuro was never enough better in those areas to make him an overall better, more valuable player. Gwynn didn't lose his team games because of those things.
I am only willing to give Ichuro so much credit for collecting so many hits because he didnt get walks or many extra base hits. His career average is .311, which is excellent. His career OBP is .355 which is pretty good. His career slugging is around .400 which is average at best.
Compare him to Gwynn or Boggs and he just doesn't match up. Gwynn's career average is .338. His OBP is .388. His slugging is .459. Boggs is .328, .415 and .443. Boggs and Gwynn are both significantly better in Ichuros best area, batting average, and about 100 points better at OPS.
You keep harping on Ichuro missing seven years because he started in Japan. It is tough to draw conclusions on how well he would have done if his early years were in the US. Japanese ball is maybe comparable to somewhere between AA and AAA. But I will readily concede Ichuru would have had some great years in MLB if he had started earlier and his career stats would be better. That doesn't mean you can subtract eight seasons from Gwynn and compare them. That's silly.
If you compare Ichuros 10 best seasons against Gwynns 10 best or Boggs' 10 best no GM would ever pick Ichuro, despite him being a better fielder and baserunner