OtherGround Forums best contact hitters in baseball ? last 40 years

5 days ago
9/26/10
Posts: 21728
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

5 days ago
2/25/13
Posts: 29701
ufc98newb - 
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 


who are the other two?

5 days ago
10/31/05
Posts: 7772
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.

5 days ago
8/19/19
Posts: 529
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan
5 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48878

I would have got this wrong without really looking at it.  I would have picked Ichiro if the question "If you had to pick one or the other at the beginning of their careers, which one would it be?"

The wildcard is "what would Ichiro's numbers be if he had his whole career in MLB?" but with the facts we have, I would have picked Ichiro and now I believe it wouldn't have been the right pick.

Tony Gwynn vs Ichiro Suzuki Comparison

5 days ago
1/2/14
Posts: 2689
Samoa -

I would have got this wrong without really looking at it.  I would have picked Ichiro if the question "If you had to pick one or the other at the beginning of their careers, which one would it be?"

The wildcard is "what would Ichiro's numbers be if he had his whole career in MLB?" but with the facts we have, I would have picked Ichiro and now I believe it wouldn't have been the right pick.

Tony Gwynn vs Ichiro Suzuki Comparison

I wouldn’t have guessed Gwynn would have been better in most categories. Really makes you think how underrated he is. 

5 days ago
10/31/05
Posts: 7773
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.

5 days ago
8/19/19
Posts: 532
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+
5 days ago
9/26/10
Posts: 21730
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

he probably gets he hits record if he had started his career in the us

 

but beyond that, very few walks. very few extra base hits. his ops+ leaves a lot to be desired. 

 

His defense was pretty good though. Had a fucking cannon of an arm, iirc.

5 days ago
9/26/10
Posts: 21731

the big "what if" with gwynn is "what if" he took better care of his body. 

 

he missed A LOT of games. Was extremely overweight. Not good for the knees. 

5 days ago
2/25/13
Posts: 29703

Just to keep sports on topic

Ichro was/is an all time great

5 days ago
8/19/19
Posts: 533
My PooPoo Hole Loves Furious Pounding - 

Just to keep sports on topic

Ichro was/is an all time great


yes, not top 30
5 days ago
2/25/13
Posts: 29721
Adrian Street - 
My PooPoo Hole Loves Furious Pounding - 

Just to keep sports on topic

Ichro was/is an all time great


yes, not top 30

Hmmm good point.

I'd say he was top 50?

5 days ago
10/31/05
Posts: 7777
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

5 days ago
12/31/10
Posts: 4157
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

5 days ago
10/31/05
Posts: 7778
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.

5 days ago
6/1/07
Posts: 22395
Pugilist82 - 
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.


Iciro had a very good arm, but let's not get silly about it.

He never led the league in outfield assists, led in RF assists twice, ranks 54th all-time in RF assists and 211th all-time in OF assists.

Clemente led the league OF assists five times, led in RF assists six times, ranks 2nd all-time in RF assists, and 17th all-time in OF assists (#1 in both for post-deadball era).

If anyone has an under-rated arm, it is Tony Gwynn. Our memories are clouded by the rag-armed fat old man version, but prime Gwynn gunned guys down regularly. He led the league in RF assists twice, ranks 20th all-time in RF assists and 101st all-time in OF assists. I still think Ichiro had the better arm (teams were more willing to take chances on the base paths in the go-go 80s so OF assists were more plentiful), but prime Gwynn was no slouch.
5 days ago
10/31/05
Posts: 7780
Steve4192 -
Pugilist82 - 
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.


Iciro had a very good arm, but let's not get silly about it.

He never led the league in outfield assists, led in RF assists twice, ranks 54th all-time in RF assists and 211th all-time in OF assists.

Clemente led the league OF assists five times, led in RF assists six times, ranks 2nd all-time in RF assists, and 17th all-time in OF assists (#1 in both for post-deadball era).

If anyone has an under-rated arm, it is Tony Gwynn. Our memories are clouded by the rag-armed fat old man version, but prime Gwynn gunned guys down regularly. He led the league in RF assists twice, ranks 20th all-time in RF assists and 101st all-time in OF assists. I still think Ichiro had the better arm (teams were more willing to take chances on the base paths in the go-go 80s so OF assists were more plentiful), but prime Gwynn was no slouch.

I just looked up, for some reason I thought he had man, many more assists than he did. I concede that point. Looking back Vlad should probably be in that convo as well.

5 days ago
6/1/07
Posts: 22398
Pugilist82 - 
Steve4192 -
Pugilist82 - 
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.


Iciro had a very good arm, but let's not get silly about it.

He never led the league in outfield assists, led in RF assists twice, ranks 54th all-time in RF assists and 211th all-time in OF assists.

Clemente led the league OF assists five times, led in RF assists six times, ranks 2nd all-time in RF assists, and 17th all-time in OF assists (#1 in both for post-deadball era).

If anyone has an under-rated arm, it is Tony Gwynn. Our memories are clouded by the rag-armed fat old man version, but prime Gwynn gunned guys down regularly. He led the league in RF assists twice, ranks 20th all-time in RF assists and 101st all-time in OF assists. I still think Ichiro had the better arm (teams were more willing to take chances on the base paths in the go-go 80s so OF assists were more plentiful), but prime Gwynn was no slouch.

I just looked up, for some reason I thought he had man, many more assists than he did. I concede that point. Looking back Vlad should probably be in that convo as well.


Yeah, I was surprised too. I was going to make a post about how Ichiro's arm CRUSHED Gwynn's, and was shocked when I discovered Tony had more assists. As I said, most of my memories of Gwynn were of the fat old man version who had a lousy arm. I had forgotten how good his arm was as a young man.
5 days ago
12/31/10
Posts: 4159
Pugilist82 -
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.

Fielding and speed are nowhere near as valuable as offense. They just dont contribute as much to winning games. Ichuro was a tremendous fielder and base runner. But Gwynn was definitely good in those areas--50+ steal seasons, five golden gloves. Ichuro was never enough better in those areas to make him an overall better, more valuable player. Gwynn didn't lose his team games because of those things.

I am only willing to give Ichuro so much credit for collecting so many hits because he didnt get walks or many extra base hits. His career average is .311, which is excellent. His career OBP is .355 which is pretty good. His career slugging is around .400 which is average at best.

Compare him to Gwynn or Boggs and he just doesn't match up. Gwynn's career average is .338. His OBP is .388. His slugging is .459. Boggs is .328, .415 and .443. Boggs and Gwynn are both significantly better in Ichuros best area, batting average, and about 100 points better at OPS. 

You keep harping on Ichuro missing seven years because he started in Japan. It is tough to draw conclusions on how well he would have done if his early years were in the US. Japanese ball is maybe comparable to somewhere between AA and AAA. But I will readily concede Ichuru would have had some great years in MLB if he had started earlier and his career stats would be better. That doesn't mean you can subtract eight seasons from Gwynn and compare them. That's silly. 

If you compare Ichuros 10 best seasons against Gwynns 10 best or Boggs' 10 best no GM would ever pick Ichuro, despite him being a better fielder and baserunner

 

 

5 days ago
12/31/10
Posts: 4160

You can't discuss great arms without mentioning Dwight Evans and Dave Parker. I remember a cannon throw Parker made one year in an all star game, maybe in 79. I grew up a Sox fan so I saw more great throws from Dewey than I can count. Assists as a stat can be misleading because base coaches often won't even try guys like Evans. Its like a great cover corner they dont want to throw near in football.

5 days ago
2/25/13
Posts: 29729
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
BriggsSeekins -
Pugilist82 -
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
Adrian Street -
Pugilist82 - 
ufc98newb -
Adrian Street - Ichiro had an OPS+ over 130 1 time in his career. Gwynn averaged 132 and had 9 years over 130 Offensively it is not even close guys

maybe tony gwynn is one of the 3 most underrated players ever!

 

gold gloves

50+ stolen bases in single season

17 HRs in one year

119 RBI one year (im guessing it's because they decided to go against norms, and put a non power hitter in the 3 hole)

.338 for career. 

was still over .320 at 41 when he retired. 

the guy never stopped hitting. 

He is definitely the most underrated of that generation. Even when he played, he never got the appreciation he deserved. The year he swiped 56 bases, he also batted .370 and got a gold glove, yet somehow he was 8th in the MVP voting. I still think Ichiro was better overall. He may even have a case for best of his generation. That’s no knock on Gwynn though, just an unbelievable talent.


I do not see how you possibly think that unless you are a huge Ichiro fan

I think Ichiro is one of the best players ever. He did everything exceptionally. I can’t even imagine what his numbers would have been like if he played his entire career here.


no power, few extra base hits, comparing to other greats, no walks, low OBP, low OPS+

He had power when he needed it, had nearly 100 triples(which is damn good for the modern era), he didn’t dip below .350 OBP his first ten seasons.

Ichiro is unfortunately a guy who is difficult to guage by stats. We don’t have 7 of what would have been his best years. How many guys could you take 7 prime years away and have the career he did?

The more you try to make this argument the weaker it gets. Didnt dip below .350 OBP? Ted Williams career obp was  .482

In no universe is Ichuro in the conversation with Gwynn for best players. The stats in baseball tell exactly who the player is. Ichuro was great bu Gwynn was much greater. Boggs was greater. A high BA is nice but when you dont walk or get extra base hits it is one dimensional.

Okay, so now let’s wipe Gwynn’s first 7 years(includes his 82 season for eligibility), and subtract 1,354 hits from his resume. 1,787 hits just doesn’t sound as impressive. Now take into account Ichiro’s speed, fielding, his arm(he or Clemente may have the best ever).

 

As for Williams, he is actually similar to Ichiro in the sense that he missed some of his best years because of the military. He also has my favorite swing of all time.

Fielding and speed are nowhere near as valuable as offense. They just dont contribute as much to winning games. Ichuro was a tremendous fielder and base runner. But Gwynn was definitely good in those areas--50+ steal seasons, five golden gloves. Ichuro was never enough better in those areas to make him an overall better, more valuable player. Gwynn didn't lose his team games because of those things.

I am only willing to give Ichuro so much credit for collecting so many hits because he didnt get walks or many extra base hits. His career average is .311, which is excellent. His career OBP is .355 which is pretty good. His career slugging is around .400 which is average at best.

Compare him to Gwynn or Boggs and he just doesn't match up. Gwynn's career average is .338. His OBP is .388. His slugging is .459. Boggs is .328, .415 and .443. Boggs and Gwynn are both significantly better in Ichuros best area, batting average, and about 100 points better at OPS. 

You keep harping on Ichuro missing seven years because he started in Japan. It is tough to draw conclusions on how well he would have done if his early years were in the US. Japanese ball is maybe comparable to somewhere between AA and AAA. But I will readily concede Ichuru would have had some great years in MLB if he had started earlier and his career stats would be better. That doesn't mean you can subtract eight seasons from Gwynn and compare them. That's silly. 

If you compare Ichuros 10 best seasons against Gwynns 10 best or Boggs' 10 best no GM would ever pick Ichuro, despite him being a better fielder and baserunner

 

 

Damn

 

Good break down

Edited: 4 days ago
6/1/07
Posts: 22399
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4 days ago
6/1/07
Posts: 22400
BriggsSeekins - 

You can't discuss great arms without mentioning Dwight Evans and Dave Parker. I remember a cannon throw Parker made one year in an all star game, maybe in 79. I grew up a Sox fan so I saw more great throws from Dewey than I can count. Assists as a stat can be misleading because base coaches often won't even try guys like Evans. Its like a great cover corner they dont want to throw near in football.


I loved Parker as a kid, but Little League coaches HATED him with a passion. While they were trying to teach kids the two-handed catch where you catch with the glove hand and cover with the off-hand, those kids were watching Parker make amazing plays in the bigs using the snapping motion to snatch the ball out of the air with one hand (which is why he was nicknamed 'The Cobra'), and trying it emulate him on the diamond.
4 days ago
6/1/07
Posts: 22401
^ What looked cool when a major leaguer did it resulted in dozens and dozens of dropped fly balls when little leaguers did it.