S&C UnderGround Kettlebells to get strong

5/27/15 7:46 PM
8/23/09
Posts: 1404
Tonight I was humbled by the 45lb bell and on ladder 2 I realized I'm not ready for it. I switched back to the 35lb and finished out the 5 mins of snatches with 40 total.

Non dominant hand grip is failing and my wrist is cocking backwards which won't be sustainable on heavier lifts or more volume. Any advice? Phone Post 3.0
5/28/15 8:20 AM
3/5/14
Posts: 2031
Triple X Guard - Tonight I was humbled by the 45lb bell and on ladder 2 I realized I'm not ready for it. I switched back to the 35lb and finished out the 5 mins of snatches with 40 total.

Non dominant hand grip is failing and my wrist is cocking backwards which won't be sustainable on heavier lifts or more volume. Any advice? Phone Post 3.0

Is your grip failing on the snatches you were doing at the end or just the clean and presses?

I know that my grip starts to be a struggle when I do snatches with a 53lber, but clean and presses shouldn't be too demanding on your grip strength.
5/28/15 9:15 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 7038
Steve Maxwells take on a snatch substitute

http://www.maxwellsc.com/maxwellsc2/articles.cfm?art_id=3130&startrow=1 Phone Post
5/28/15 11:11 AM
8/23/09
Posts: 1406
Hurtsogood -
Triple X Guard - Tonight I was humbled by the 45lb bell and on ladder 2 I realized I'm not ready for it. I switched back to the 35lb and finished out the 5 mins of snatches with 40 total.

Non dominant hand grip is failing and my wrist is cocking backwards which won't be sustainable on heavier lifts or more volume. Any advice? Phone Post 3.0

Is your grip failing on the snatches you were doing at the end or just the clean and presses?

I know that my grip starts to be a struggle when I do snatches with a 53lber, but clean and presses shouldn't be too demanding on your grip strength.
The grip was failing on snatches at the end of the workout. I feel like it's just a grip strength issue. I don't feel like I can grip as tightly with my non dominant hand making it more likely to move around. Phone Post 3.0
5/28/15 11:14 AM
8/23/09
Posts: 1407
UGCTT_5 for fighting - Steve Maxwells take on a snatch substitute

http://www.maxwellsc.com/maxwellsc2/articles.cfm?art_id=3130&startrow=1 Phone Post
Good article. Thanks. Phone Post 3.0
5/28/15 11:21 AM
3/5/14
Posts: 2039
Triple X Guard - 
Hurtsogood -
Triple X Guard - Tonight I was humbled by the 45lb bell and on ladder 2 I realized I'm not ready for it. I switched back to the 35lb and finished out the 5 mins of snatches with 40 total.

Non dominant hand grip is failing and my wrist is cocking backwards which won't be sustainable on heavier lifts or more volume. Any advice? Phone Post 3.0

Is your grip failing on the snatches you were doing at the end or just the clean and presses?

I know that my grip starts to be a struggle when I do snatches with a 53lber, but clean and presses shouldn't be too demanding on your grip strength.
The grip was failing on snatches at the end of the workout. I feel like it's just a grip strength issue. I don't feel like I can grip as tightly with my non dominant hand making it more likely to move around. Phone Post 3.0

Yea, that's probably not that unusual. Maybe set the bell down or switch hands whenever your grip starts to fail so as to keep good form and not injure yourself.
5/28/15 7:19 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 490
Snatching is done only on the light day and for 50-60% of what you're capable of. eg if you could do sets of 10 each hand you'd do 5-6. Grip shouldn't be an issue doing 5-5 reps each hand with a 16.

You say you can't grip it tight enough. That is probably the problem. You don't want to grip it tight. In fact, you want to grip it as loosely as possible. KBs aren't like bars and DBs that have handles that spin around the weight. The KB handle needs to be able to spin in your hand. To allow that you need a loose, active grip that is constantly changing and adjusting to where the bell is right now.

At the top the hand can be very relaxed. (Don't open it, that's a bad habit and switches off some shoulder stability). Keep a loose grip on the bell. As you drop the bell you don't even need to hang onto it. It's in your hand but not gripped by your hand until the point where it reaches about chest high.

From chest high you can grip it and drag/ hike it back behind you. But, as you do this the bell will jump from the palm of your hand over your callus line and into your fingers. At the back of the backswing the handle of the bell will be mostly all resting on your index finger.(I've even got a callus on both hands just from this).

On the upswing the process is reversed - it goes from fingers and jumps across the calluses into the palm as you punch the hand through to finish the snatch. If you need to hang on tightly on the upswing it's because you're trying to pull it with your arms and not drive it with your hips. (Very common error). Take a look at the pics of Pavel demonstrating the snatch and notice how flat he gets and how deeply the bell is swung back. He's hypermobile and goes too far for most, but I will bet your backswing is not even close to as good.

Final point - snatching is easy if your swing is good. Somewhere in ETK pavel recommends not snatching at all for the first year of KB training. So don't stress too much if you're finding it problematic. If you're really after a fast fix go and spend some cash and pay for a session with a good RKC as they'll fix in a single hour what you might need months to get right.
5/28/15 8:59 PM
8/23/09
Posts: 1408
I actually decided to take a step back and not rush progress. I went through the updated Program Minimum tonight and I'm going to spend some more time with that and the heavier bell before getting into RoP. Phone Post 3.0
5/29/15 10:43 AM
9/3/14
Posts: 23
bull neck - Snatching is done only on the light day and for 50-60% of what you're capable of. eg if you could do sets of 10 each hand you'd do 5-6. Grip shouldn't be an issue doing 5-5 reps each hand with a 16.

You say you can't grip it tight enough. That is probably the problem. You don't want to grip it tight. In fact, you want to grip it as loosely as possible. KBs aren't like bars and DBs that have handles that spin around the weight. The KB handle needs to be able to spin in your hand. To allow that you need a loose, active grip that is constantly changing and adjusting to where the bell is right now.

At the top the hand can be very relaxed. (Don't open it, that's a bad habit and switches off some shoulder stability). Keep a loose grip on the bell. As you drop the bell you don't even need to hang onto it. It's in your hand but not gripped by your hand until the point where it reaches about chest high.

From chest high you can grip it and drag/ hike it back behind you. But, as you do this the bell will jump from the palm of your hand over your callus line and into your fingers. At the back of the backswing the handle of the bell will be mostly all resting on your index finger.(I've even got a callus on both hands just from this).

On the upswing the process is reversed - it goes from fingers and jumps across the calluses into the palm as you punch the hand through to finish the snatch. If you need to hang on tightly on the upswing it's because you're trying to pull it with your arms and not drive it with your hips. (Very common error). Take a look at the pics of Pavel demonstrating the snatch and notice how flat he gets and how deeply the bell is swung back. He's hypermobile and goes too far for most, but I will bet your backswing is not even close to as good.

Final point - snatching is easy if your swing is good. Somewhere in ETK pavel recommends not snatching at all for the first year of KB training. So don't stress too much if you're finding it problematic. If you're really after a fast fix go and spend some cash and pay for a session with a good RKC as they'll fix in a single hour what you might need months to get right.

Voted up for great advice. I see so many ppl death grip the KB. This will limit the KB's ability to move/rotate freely which will make the KB manipulation portion (or even if you were cleaning) slow, which in turn may lead to increased impact on the wrist/forearm. Also a sure way to develop some mean calluses in the wrong spots, too.

The vertical snatch is less hip hinge/swing oriented but IMO requires more of a loose grip versus the swing based/curvilinear version.
5/29/15 3:26 PM
5/17/13
Posts: 4357
Ttt Phone Post 3.0
5/29/15 6:36 PM
8/23/09
Posts: 1410
bull neck - Snatching is done only on the light day and for 50-60% of what you're capable of. eg if you could do sets of 10 each hand you'd do 5-6. Grip shouldn't be an issue doing 5-5 reps each hand with a 16.

You say you can't grip it tight enough. That is probably the problem. You don't want to grip it tight. In fact, you want to grip it as loosely as possible. KBs aren't like bars and DBs that have handles that spin around the weight. The KB handle needs to be able to spin in your hand. To allow that you need a loose, active grip that is constantly changing and adjusting to where the bell is right now.

At the top the hand can be very relaxed. (Don't open it, that's a bad habit and switches off some shoulder stability). Keep a loose grip on the bell. As you drop the bell you don't even need to hang onto it. It's in your hand but not gripped by your hand until the point where it reaches about chest high.

From chest high you can grip it and drag/ hike it back behind you. But, as you do this the bell will jump from the palm of your hand over your callus line and into your fingers. At the back of the backswing the handle of the bell will be mostly all resting on your index finger.(I've even got a callus on both hands just from this).

On the upswing the process is reversed - it goes from fingers and jumps across the calluses into the palm as you punch the hand through to finish the snatch. If you need to hang on tightly on the upswing it's because you're trying to pull it with your arms and not drive it with your hips. (Very common error). Take a look at the pics of Pavel demonstrating the snatch and notice how flat he gets and how deeply the bell is swung back. He's hypermobile and goes too far for most, but I will bet your backswing is not even close to as good.

Final point - snatching is easy if your swing is good. Somewhere in ETK pavel recommends not snatching at all for the first year of KB training. So don't stress too much if you're finding it problematic. If you're really after a fast fix go and spend some cash and pay for a session with a good RKC as they'll fix in a single hour what you might need months to get right.
VU. Quickly becoming my favorite poster! Phone Post 3.0
5/30/15 12:12 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 6273
Btw anyone looking for a pretty damn good and tough yet simple KB only program should check out Pavel's Force Recon workouts.

Alternate between A and B on M-W-F

The original, attributed to Pavel Tsatsouline:
A:
Weighted Pull Ups 5x5
Alternate Pull Ups with Double Cleans and Presses - 5x5 (sugg 2 x 24kg)
Rock Bottom Front squats with 1sec pause 5x5 (sugg 2 x 32kg)
Kettlebell snatches 5 sets, hard but not to failure (suggested 32kg)
Alternate sets of snatches with strict hanging leg raises - 5 sets
B:
One Arm Clean and Jerks 10 Minutes - pay attention to managing fatigue (suggested 32kg)
Heavy Abs 5x5
Pull Ups 100 Total
Alternate the pull ups with front squats, sets of 10 (sugg 2 x 24kg)
Kettlebell snatches or swings: sets of 10/20 then 100 yard recovery jog. As many sets as safely possible. Phone Post 3.0
6/1/15 9:10 AM
3/5/14
Posts: 2049
bull neck - Snatching is done only on the light day and for 50-60% of what you're capable of. eg if you could do sets of 10 each hand you'd do 5-6. Grip shouldn't be an issue doing 5-5 reps each hand with a 16.

You say you can't grip it tight enough. That is probably the problem. You don't want to grip it tight. In fact, you want to grip it as loosely as possible. KBs aren't like bars and DBs that have handles that spin around the weight. The KB handle needs to be able to spin in your hand. To allow that you need a loose, active grip that is constantly changing and adjusting to where the bell is right now.

At the top the hand can be very relaxed. (Don't open it, that's a bad habit and switches off some shoulder stability). Keep a loose grip on the bell. As you drop the bell you don't even need to hang onto it. It's in your hand but not gripped by your hand until the point where it reaches about chest high.

From chest high you can grip it and drag/ hike it back behind you. But, as you do this the bell will jump from the palm of your hand over your callus line and into your fingers. At the back of the backswing the handle of the bell will be mostly all resting on your index finger.(I've even got a callus on both hands just from this).

On the upswing the process is reversed - it goes from fingers and jumps across the calluses into the palm as you punch the hand through to finish the snatch. If you need to hang on tightly on the upswing it's because you're trying to pull it with your arms and not drive it with your hips. (Very common error). Take a look at the pics of Pavel demonstrating the snatch and notice how flat he gets and how deeply the bell is swung back. He's hypermobile and goes too far for most, but I will bet your backswing is not even close to as good.

Final point - snatching is easy if your swing is good. Somewhere in ETK pavel recommends not snatching at all for the first year of KB training. So don't stress too much if you're finding it problematic. If you're really after a fast fix go and spend some cash and pay for a session with a good RKC as they'll fix in a single hour what you might need months to get right.

VU for the Australian fellow.
6/1/15 9:12 AM
3/5/14
Posts: 2050
Tom Lawlor - Btw anyone looking for a pretty damn good and tough yet simple KB only program should check out Pavel's Force Recon workouts.

Alternate between A and B on M-W-F

The original, attributed to Pavel Tsatsouline:
A:
Weighted Pull Ups 5x5
Alternate Pull Ups with Double Cleans and Presses - 5x5 (sugg 2 x 24kg)
Rock Bottom Front squats with 1sec pause 5x5 (sugg 2 x 32kg)
Kettlebell snatches 5 sets, hard but not to failure (suggested 32kg)
Alternate sets of snatches with strict hanging leg raises - 5 sets
B:
One Arm Clean and Jerks 10 Minutes - pay attention to managing fatigue (suggested 32kg)
Heavy Abs 5x5
Pull Ups 100 Total
Alternate the pull ups with front squats, sets of 10 (sugg 2 x 24kg)
Kettlebell snatches or swings: sets of 10/20 then 100 yard recovery jog. As many sets as safely possible. Phone Post 3.0

This sounds good. Wish I had heavier bells than 24kg. Someday.
6/1/15 2:38 PM
8/23/09
Posts: 1432
If one was to train with the Kettlebell specifically for fat loss, what kind of workout or program would be involved? Phone Post 3.0
6/1/15 4:32 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 6277
Triple X Guard - If one was to train with the Kettlebell specifically for fat loss, what kind of workout or program would be involved? Phone Post 3.0
Check out Dan Johns 10000 Swing Challenge.

Could end up being boring though... Phone Post 3.0
6/1/15 5:41 PM
8/23/09
Posts: 1433
Tom Lawlor -
Triple X Guard - If one was to train with the Kettlebell specifically for fat loss, what kind of workout or program would be involved? Phone Post 3.0
Check out Dan Johns 10000 Swing Challenge.

Could end up being boring though... Phone Post 3.0
Jesus. Just read it on TNation and it looks brutal. Phone Post 3.0
6/1/15 8:11 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 491
The 10,000 swing thing is good. I was actually at Dan's house training when he came up with that so I got to play with a few iterations that never made it to print. If you want to lose some fat I'd suggest following the format but do it something like this one day of the week (because it's really fucking long if you do it daily):

push up x 10
2H swing x 10
Row 100m
push up x 15
swing x 15
row 150m
push up 25
swing x 25
row 250m
push up x 50
swing x 50
row 500m

It's 100 swings and push ups per round. 3-4 rounds will be a pretty tough workout for most.

Just a general note on the 10,000 swing thing - go a bell lighter than you think. When I trialled this with Dan I used a 20 as did all the guys in the group. The hardest part is grip on the sets of 50.

On fat loss - diet has to be the first thing you worry about before the training plan. I've seen better results from KB Muscle by Geoff Neupert, daily walking, and easy 30min runs on the non lifting days than I have from any other KB workout. Muscle is also far better than KB Burn, Burn extreme, or Burn 2.0 IMO, although it's lacking diet advice, which he amended for later products after my test group in Oz beat his group for overall fat and weight loss once we brought in the diet component.
6/3/15 7:58 AM
8/23/09
Posts: 1439
bull neck - The 10,000 swing thing is good. I was actually at Dan's house training when he came up with that so I got to play with a few iterations that never made it to print. If you want to lose some fat I'd suggest following the format but do it something like this one day of the week (because it's really fucking long if you do it daily):

push up x 10
2H swing x 10
Row 100m
push up x 15
swing x 15
row 150m
push up 25
swing x 25
row 250m
push up x 50
swing x 50
row 500m

It's 100 swings and push ups per round. 3-4 rounds will be a pretty tough workout for most.

Just a general note on the 10,000 swing thing - go a bell lighter than you think. When I trialled this with Dan I used a 20 as did all the guys in the group. The hardest part is grip on the sets of 50.

On fat loss - diet has to be the first thing you worry about before the training plan. I've seen better results from KB Muscle by Geoff Neupert, daily walking, and easy 30min runs on the non lifting days than I have from any other KB workout. Muscle is also far better than KB Burn, Burn extreme, or Burn 2.0 IMO, although it's lacking diet advice, which he amended for later products after my test group in Oz beat his group for overall fat and weight loss once we brought in the diet component.
Thanks. VU again.

Just listening to Neupert talking about his Original Strength system. It sounds revolutionary or he's full of it haha! Phone Post 3.0
6/3/15 8:13 AM
8/23/09
Posts: 1441
Never mind. I can guess your thoughts on OS

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/phase-one-how-to-reset-the-body-and-awake-your-inner-6-year-old Phone Post 3.0
6/3/15 5:33 PM
1/4/14
Posts: 587
I currently do heavy barbell training (usual squat, deadlift, bench etc. with weights where I can do no more than 4-5 reps per set) 3 times a week but am looking to start incorporating kettlebells into my training regime about 2 or 3 times per week.
Is it overkill to try and do heavy barbell training one day and then do kettlebell training the next day? (with a weight where I'm doing 10 reps per set for example - so nothing crazily heavy).
Or would it make more sense to just focus on the kettlebell training for now and give the barbell training a break. Is it going to be too much to try and do both types of training at the same time? Phone Post 3.0
6/3/15 6:44 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 492
Triple X - yes, OS is good, as are all the other systems it mimics. The problem with all that stuff that I see is that Primal Move and OS have people who move like shit still. Ido Portal says it best, "why do they still crawl like babies"?

Crawling and other developmental pattern work is supposed to develop neural activity. OS have lost their way a bit, I think, by urging people to load a pattern that is designed to increase neural complexity. You don't load the brain, you add complexity. That's how we develop and how we ended up with such amazing motor control in our hands - complexity. It's one of the reasons people think the Kenyans run so fast - because they have to train in a relatively complex environment of rough dirt roads so that when they run on smooth flat surfaces at major events the nervous system has more juice it can send to the muscles. But OS and others just use the same easily mastered pattern over and over.

If you want to understand moving better you need to go spend time with Ido. There's just no one better. Maybe Erwan Le Corre but I still think Ido is better.

NutJobJim - I mix all forms of strength every session. The muscles don't know what implement you're using, just how hard you're working. A session might have some barbell work and finish with a KB complex. Or it might have bodyweight upper body work on rings or weighted pull ups, a barbell lower body lift, and some swings. I train every day, usually twice a day (plus run). The training itself isn't the issue for most it's the recovery. If you sleep and eat enough you can recover from just about anything.
6/4/15 8:08 AM
9/3/14
Posts: 24
I try to train similar to bull neck (although not every day nor twice per day unless you count mat time). Either I'll mix in a KB day and do more traditional exercises on other days or I'll simply mix in KB circuits/ladders/complexes within my other barbell or DB training.

Hurtsogood already mentioned Pat Flynn who I think is good but I'd also like to mention Jason C. Brown as another. Has a bunch of really cool KB flows that compliments BJJ nicely. I'd recommend anyone and everyone to check him out.
6/4/15 8:54 AM
3/5/14
Posts: 2083
I think mixing in Kettlebell complexes after doing heavier barbell lifts is great. Nice way to finish off a workout.
6/4/15 4:39 PM
1/4/14
Posts: 588
Thanks for all the responses.
I think I'll just add a few kettlebell exercises to my barbell routine tomorrow to finish off my session.
Definitely need to get better at mixing in different types of training and different exercises rather than just doing the usual stuff. Phone Post 3.0