UnderGround Forums Greatest fall from grace in mma

8/29/15 1:01 AM
7/14/08
Posts: 18140
Miguel, Pulver, Chocolate Al, they all seemed to lose their chin. In MMA, it seems like you lose the durability and ability to take the bigger shots fast. All three of those guys took massive shots and shrugged them off as younger men but hit a certain age and just couldn't walk then off anymore. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:04 AM
1/20/06
Posts: 11403
Samoa -
TalkShowOnMute - Most of the Pride guys who came to the UFC. Phone Post 3.0
Yeah, Noguiera, Shogun, Anderson, Rampage etc really had no impact when they came over. Phone Post 3.0
*giggles* Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:10 AM
5/18/12
Posts: 7520
What about TJ Grant, went from knocking out Maynard and getting a titleshot, to not fighting in over 3 years... Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:12 AM
1/1/15
Posts: 146
Samoa -
TalkShowOnMute - Most of the Pride guys who came to the UFC. Phone Post 3.0
Yeah, Noguiera, Shogun, Anderson, Rampage etc really had no impact when they came over. Phone Post 3.0
Honorable mention: Mark Hunt, was so close to fighting for the heavyweight title, but got caught by Werdum. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:12 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6280
Samoa - 
TalkShowOnMute - Most of the Pride guys who came to the UFC. Phone Post 3.0
Yeah, Noguiera, Shogun, Anderson, Rampage etc really had no impact when they came over. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah..

I don't know where this misconception comes from.

Silly.
8/29/15 1:14 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31081
JewLuPlus -
Samoa -
TalkShowOnMute - Most of the Pride guys who came to the UFC. Phone Post 3.0
Yeah, Noguiera, Shogun, Anderson, Rampage etc really had no impact when they came over. Phone Post 3.0
Honorable mention: Mark Hunt, was so close to fighting for the heavyweight title, but got caught by Werdum. Phone Post 3.0
The pineapple would have had a title shot before too if he didn't get wheel kicked into Bolivia by JDS. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:15 AM
6/4/15
Posts: 338
Wand. Going out the way he did is depressing. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:17 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6281
Ken Shamrock.

Was at one time very arguably the best... went to WWF... came back a shadow of his former self (mostly due to serious injuries).

If Ken had taken a couple steps down in competition years before he did, similar to what Dan Severn did, his record over the last decade would look better.
8/29/15 1:20 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31085
onepunchJD - Ken Shamrock.

Was at one time very arguably the best... went to WWF... came back a shadow of his former self (mostly due to serious injuries).

If Ken had taken a couple steps down in competition years before he did, similar to what Dan Severn did, his record over the last decade would look better.
Was never ever one of the best IMO. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:26 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6282
Samoa - 
onepunchJD - Ken Shamrock.

Was at one time very arguably the best... went to WWF... came back a shadow of his former self (mostly due to serious injuries).

If Ken had taken a couple steps down in competition years before he did, similar to what Dan Severn did, his record over the last decade would look better.
Was never ever one of the best IMO. Phone Post 3.0

In the 90's?

I'm not even sure how you could logically argue that he wasn't.
8/29/15 1:30 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6283

8/29/15 1:41 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31086
onepunchJD -
Samoa - 
onepunchJD - Ken Shamrock.

Was at one time very arguably the best... went to WWF... came back a shadow of his former self (mostly due to serious injuries).

If Ken had taken a couple steps down in competition years before he did, similar to what Dan Severn did, his record over the last decade would look better.
Was never ever one of the best IMO. Phone Post 3.0

In the 90's?

I'm not even sure how you could logically argue that he wasn't.
Logically? He never won a tournament. Ever. He never had a run. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:44 AM
12/5/11
Posts: 2767
Cro cop

Came to ufc and look like crap against mid level guys.

I still don't get why they give him mid level guys tho.

His name alone warrants a mega fight and ufc has never ever given him one Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:49 AM
7/29/02
Posts: 72830
honestly Fedor fell the hardest.. from unbeatable to beaten by guys nobody suspected would win

8/29/15 1:50 AM
7/29/02
Posts: 72831
ShakaSway - Think Forrest went down quick after winning the LHW Championship. Respect the hell out of the guy. Won a huge upset on Shogun, defeated Rampage, lost to Rashad and Anderson, defeated Ortiz and Franklin, lost to Shogun, then had a close fight with Ortiz to end off his career.

Not too bad, but the momentum to get to top, to how quick he went back was insane Phone Post 3.0

valid argument
8/29/15 1:51 AM
7/29/02
Posts: 72832
If we're talking just falls from grace, you have to mention Hermes Franca and War Machine.
8/29/15 1:52 AM
3/1/15
Posts: 286
Samoa -
k1levelgrappling -
Samoa -
k1levelgrappling - Anderson Silva. Not so much for his two losses, because Weidman is a good fighter. Mainly because he pissed hot for PEDs and then tried to use that lame ass tainted Viagra excuse. That excuse more than anything was the icing on the cake. Pissing hot, fine he came off a gruesome injury, the fans will forgive him. Lying and trying to play us for stupid, no. Phone Post 3.0
The losses are part of it for me. Phone Post 3.0
Don't get me wrong, the losses don't help. But they alone wouldn't have caused him to fall from grace. They were just small factors in my opinion. The biggest factors were the PEDs and lies. Phone Post 3.0
For me the losses are significant. He lost in devastating fashion. Then came a lackluster performance against a blown up WW that is extremely hittable and then the steroid stuff with a cherry on top of mystery liquid cialis from a "friend" with a hearing punctuated with Salt n Peppa songs being played to the commission.

No one part is responsible for "the fall" being the greatest fall of all time.......but the are all necessary to create it.

Just my opinion. We see it a little differently and I'm ok with it. I see what you are saying and I don't always make sense. Phone Post 3.0
No that makes perfect sense. I wasn't even thinking about his performance against a stoned Nick Diaz. Plus they were pretty devastating losses. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 1:58 AM
6/29/10
Posts: 4761
The Hammer Coleman..... I just see his daughters crying... Most sad day in MMA history. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 2:04 AM
11/7/10
Posts: 1460
Paulo Filho?
8/29/15 2:05 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6290
Samoa - 
onepunchJD -
Samoa - 
onepunchJD - Ken Shamrock.

Was at one time very arguably the best... went to WWF... came back a shadow of his former self (mostly due to serious injuries).

If Ken had taken a couple steps down in competition years before he did, similar to what Dan Severn did, his record over the last decade would look better.
Was never ever one of the best IMO. Phone Post 3.0

In the 90's?

I'm not even sure how you could logically argue that he wasn't.
Logically? He never won a tournament. Ever. He never had a run. Phone Post 3.0

First King Of Pancrase tournament champion.

That's a tournament.. and at a time when Pancrase arguably had more talent than all but the top 2-3 UFC fighters.

You know damn well he would have beat Harold Howard, everybody does.

Wins over Masa Funaki (twice), Mo Smith, Bas Rutten (twice), Dan Severn...

Draws that would have been decisions over Oleg Taktarov and Royce Gracie.

Funaki - 2x KOP
Rutten - 3x KOP
Mo Smith - future UFC champion, kickboxing legend
Dan Severn - 2 time UFC champion
Oleg Taktarov - UFC champion
Royce Gracie - self explanatory

From 1993 to 1996 Ken Shamrock was 24-5-2 with 22 submissions.

Yeah, he sucked. LOL

Make it 23-5-2 if you don't count the Hume work.

Make it 23-2-2 if you don't count him putting over Suzuki and Funaki.

Make it 23-1-2 if you don't count the farce that was "The Dance".

Make it 25-1 if you put judges in the Oleg fight and second Royce fight.

Or you can leave it at 24-5-2.

Either way, he competed with and beat the best fighters of his era.

Again - you cannot logically argue that he was not one of the best.

(with all due respect, because your a good poster)
8/29/15 2:14 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31087
It's hard to take all of his Pancrase wins as legit. That was an org with admitted works and angles on putting fighters over.

If Ken was such a well rounded fighter why did he look absolutely lost against a guy with 2 fights in UFC I?

He never won a tournament in NHB. He never went on a run to make up for the not winning one. He had horribly boring fights repeatedly and lost against guys like Fujita.

He has a win and a loss with Severn; that's about it in the 90's after getting in the UFC non-Pancrase fights. Draw with Oleg too I guess in a boring fight with his former training partner. Draw and a loss to Royce. That's the sum of his non-Pancrase 1990's NHB career.

It's just my opinion. I can be wrong. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 2:15 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31088
You're a good dude too. I like your posts. VU. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 2:16 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 31089
I'm definitely wrong if all of his Pancrase wins are taken at face value. I admit that. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 2:19 AM
2/24/12
Posts: 4424
inf0 - honestly Fedor fell the hardest.. from unbeatable to beaten by guys nobody suspected would win

I was going to say this. My heart was broken when he got arm barred and when bigfoot ruined his face with hammer fists.. Phone Post 3.0
8/29/15 2:33 AM
5/10/04
Posts: 6291
Samoa - It's hard to take all of his Pancrase wins as legit. That was an org with admitted works and angles on putting fighters over.

If Ken was such a well rounded fighter why did he look absolutely lost against a guy with 2 fights in UFC I?

He never won a tournament in NHB. He never went on a run to make up for the not winning one. He had horribly boring fights repeatedly and lost against guys like Fujita.

He has a win and a loss with Severn; that's about it in the 90's after getting in the UFC non-Pancrase fights. Draw with Oleg too I guess in a boring fight with his former training partner. Draw and a loss to Royce. That's the sum of his non-Pancrase 1990's NHB career.

It's just my opinion. I can be wrong. Phone Post 3.0

I brought up the suspect Pancrase fights in question, and hypothetically altered his record to reflect them for sake of argument.

If Pancrase doesn't count, then legends like Funaki and Bas would not be legends.

"""If Ken was such a well rounded fighter why did he look absolutely lost against a guy with 2 fights in UFC I?"""

^^ you mean Royce? Not sure I'm following you on that one. ---- If you mean Royce, everybody lost to Royce until Ken took him the distance. Sakuraba would beat him years later. Royce with the gi in those days was something nobody understood how to handle. Ken did the best, and very arguably beat him the second time around.

The Fujita fight was after his comeback, and if you read my original post you quoted, not part of the era I considered Ken to be "at one time very arguably the best". That said, Fujita was no joke back then. A big tough dude who even had Fedor rocked. And come on man... you know Ken was kicking his ass before completely gassing out to the point of severe heart problems. There was something wrong with Ken in that fight, and he was still whooping Fujita's ass.

The "loss" to Severn was tainted by weird last minute rule changes. One of the worst fights ever. Hard to really look at that as a loss for Ken or a win for Severn.

Ken did hold back against Oleg. Yeah.. that's a bit disappointing. But he still controlled and all but dominated him. He clearly proved he was the superior fighter.

And you can't overlook Ken's UFC wins over Pat Smith, Leininger, Kimo, and Brian Johnson. These were all very tough fighters for the time, and Leininger a legit Judoka. Ken manhandled these guys. These fights weren't even close.

You are correct that Ken had a couple boring fights. I am not defending those other that to say he is not the only fighter to have them.

You are also correct that Ken underachieved.

But he still proved, head-to-head, that he was one of the best fighters of that era. This is based on how he looked against other champions from that era.