UnderGround Forums History to show "no 165" as Dana's biggest mistake

Edited: 10/27/20 5:57 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 40505

Around 53% of the pro MMA talent competes in three divisions between men's 145 and 170 lbs.

The other 47% of the talent competes for nine belts in the other men's divisons and in the UFC's four women's divisions. Exclude the females and 55% of the talent pool competes between 145 lbs and 170 lbs in men's MMA.

Fightmatrix ranks 750 active male pros at 155 and 700 at 170 lbs but they could rank them into the thousands if they wanted. 250 men are competing and ranked at FLW and the same goes for HW. So LW alone has more active men competing than FLW and HW combined. Less than 200 active females are ranked and competing for fifteen titles in five divisions in the major promotions (UFC, Bellator, ONE, PFL, Invicta).

UFC created a WMMA FW division while the talent pool is so tiny that just to create a "top 20" at FW, fightmatrix has had to combine the WMMA 155 lb fighters into the 145 lb rankings on their site so UFC BW/FW champ is ranked #1, Bellator FW champ is ranked #2 and PFL LW champ is ranked #4 in a division she has never even made weight for. Those twenty ranked fighters also include lots of former BWs who have just moved up to compete up in weight.

Over half the sports talent pool should not have to compete in three divisions for three UFC belts while 47% of the sports talent pool gets to compete in nine divisions for nine belts.

Dana has done a lot of things right in MMA, this is not a bash Dana thread but his ignoring the fighter's need for 170 lbs to be changed to 165 lbs and 175 lbs will go down in history as one of his biggest mistakes.

 

10/27/20 5:35 AM
7/2/09
Posts: 8643

Well said.

10/27/20 6:03 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 5814

A couple of years ago, there was a talk of making the 165lb division in the UFC and replace the 170 with 175 division.Why didn’t this happen?

 

10/27/20 6:14 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 14747
flip_guard -

A couple of years ago, there was a talk of making the 165lb division in the UFC and replace the 170 with 175 division.Why didn’t this happen?

 

Because it makes too much sense. Just like a LW tournament 

10/27/20 6:58 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 15476

agreed

10/27/20 9:38 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 67522

Agreed

10/27/20 10:31 AM
2/28/14
Posts: 1227

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

10/27/20 10:48 AM
7/29/13
Posts: 4939

It makes so much sense. It closes the gap between the two weight making it easier on some fighters bodies who cut weight to make the lower weight because they are too small for the higher one. You'd think Dana would care about that since it has to do with fighter safety. It also gives the ufc one more champion to promote and sell fights for. Finally it gives the opportunity for more "superfights". We may get to see certain fights we would have not get to see before. 

10/27/20 11:34 AM
7/2/09
Posts: 8645
Gennady Goblin -

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

Hi Dana!

10/27/20 11:42 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 40521
Gennady Goblin -

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

"It can't go 10,10,10,20 pounts between weights"

Yes it can. Look at boxing.... 3 and 4 lbs between some very light weights and 25 lbs between LHW and cruiserweight. A 5 lb difference is much different at 125 lbs than say LHW in combat sports.

Look a population distribution curve for sizes in the population as well. This will let you know another reason 195 lbs is not needed.

"to create 3 shitty divisions"

No shitty divisions. All three divisions would still have the deepest talent pools in the sport aside from FW.

 

10/27/20 11:45 AM
1/24/16
Posts: 3426

Literally everyone on this planet is in favor of it except Egg. 

It always made me wonder, he's gotta have a reason for it. And it's not because it would thin out the divisions what a joke 

10/27/20 11:50 AM
12/1/10
Posts: 5243

125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 205, <


seriously only a fucking retard would not think this is a good idea.


10/27/20 11:52 AM
4/22/07
Posts: 73651

Seeing boxing watered down with too many belts, the ufc is already on that path.

You guys know this does take away potential matchups once guys pick weight right? We need less divisions not more.

Edited: 10/27/20 11:58 AM
4/3/10
Posts: 980

100% yes. Not only for the fans, but definitely for fighter safety. I was one of the little welterweights that cut to LW. Not a huge deal to have a 15 pound gap in the heavy but on a small frame it’s brutal. People would say, why not just fight WW. And the answer is, you now have to fight a guy that should be at 85. Dana really needs to make 155-205 something like 55, 65, 75, 90, 205. These aren’t to old days. The talent is there and the would be stacked. Do it for your fighters. 

10/27/20 3:43 PM
2/25/08
Posts: 26

Another title.  More future interim titles.  Another weight limit for people to miss.  The 170s will be bitching because 165 is too small but 175 is too big.  This isn’t boxing.  I vote no.  

10/27/20 3:54 PM
12/26/19
Posts: 1138
Gennady Goblin -

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

This, all of this. No more watering down the UFC.

10/27/20 4:00 PM
7/2/09
Posts: 8647
dinkledorf -

Literally everyone on this planet is in favor of it except Egg. 

It always made me wonder, he's gotta have a reason for it. And it's not because it would thin out the divisions what a joke 

I'm in the same boat.

 

The only thing I can think of is the contracts.  The UFC has pulled some serious strong arm tactics in the past to get fighters to sign contracts, especially if the UFC "needs to make a change" (e.g., video game rights and AKA).  My guess is he has some guys under contracts that he doesn't want to reopen or revisit under any circumstances.  Once those guys have moved on from the sport, we'll see 165. 

 

The logistics of shuffling hundreds of fighters all at once (guys moving up from 155, guys moving down from 170, guys moving up from 170, guys moving down from 185) probably doesn't seem attractive either... admittedly, to me the outsider, that seems like chaos and drama waiting to happen.

 

There's also the issue of contracting with partners.  Do those contracts stipulate fights at 170?  If so, those contracts would also need to be redone.  Unless you have some amazing leverage, usually people aren't excited about reopening contracts, especially if the need is only one way.

 

I wish I didn't think like that, but I do.

 

I think we'll see 165 but it'll be at a time most convenient and profitable, natural for the UFC.

 

Fighters be damned, of course... even if it's GSP and Khabib.

10/27/20 4:55 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 5817
Gennady Goblin -

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

I think it make sense having those 10 lbs increments just for the 165lb division and not for the heavier division.

The only thing I don’t like is kind of losing the 170lb history, which is huge.

I wouldn’t want anymore other new division but they should just have heavyweight division not limited to 265lbs since the talent at the super heavy is not relevant.

10/27/20 7:25 PM
9/30/09
Posts: 10883

How about the UFC really stick to their guns and fine fighters, who weigh in at 170 but show up at 195?  
    The real issue is weight cutting. Force them to fight around their actual weight. I don’t blame the fighters for chasing an edge. They need to feed their families. But there is no edge when everyone is cutting. UFC needs to get on top of it. 

10/27/20 7:55 PM
2/28/14
Posts: 1230
BostonCharm -

How about the UFC really stick to their guns and fine fighters, who weigh in at 170 but show up at 195?  
    The real issue is weight cutting. Force them to fight around their actual weight. I don’t blame the fighters for chasing an edge. They need to feed their families. But there is no edge when everyone is cutting. UFC needs to get on top of it. 

What do you propose? Same day weigh ins would still have guys cutting weight to attempt to have an advantage, only they have much less time for their body to recover from the dehydration. This would be more unsafe for fighters.

I suppose you could do a day before weigh in, and then a second weigh in moments before they walk into the cage. What do you set the limit at for the 2nd weigh in? If you fight 170, you can weigh no more than 175 on the second weigh in? Okay, a guy weighs in 176.5, how big is the fine? 10% will do nothing. You'd have to go real big, like 50%. That's gonna be a tough one to get everyone on board for. Or you just scrap the fight altogether. That would crush cards.

And you'd still have guys doing their best to game the system. They would likely do their best to cut hard for the first weigh in, then proceed to do a smaller cut for the 2nd weigh in. It all just leads to fighters being more compromised in the cage. 

10/27/20 8:25 PM
12/3/13
Posts: 162
Gennady Goblin -

The last thing we need is more belts in more divisions. Boxing is a gigantic clusterfuck with their new weight every 6 pounds. You people piss and moan endlessly about Conor winning the featherweight belt, not defending it, then moving up to lightweight and collecting that belt. That's gonna happen more and more as you add all these new weight After you fuck with 170 and end the history of the division, splitting into 165 and 175, now you HAVE to do a 195 "Super Middleweight". It can't go 10, 10, 10, 10, 20 pounds between weights. 

So you're dismantling 1 historic division to create 3 shitty divisons with 3 new champions. And I'd damn near guarantee that 99% of viewers ALREADY couldn't name who the current champs of each division are. But you want 3 more, more guys refusing to defend belts, demanding more "money fight", "super fight", "red panty night" paydays switching between divisions. Fuck all that noise.

This guy for President.

Edited: 10/27/20 10:52 PM
1/7/09
Posts: 5209
HTMNDN - 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 205, <


seriously only a fucking retard would not think this is a good idea.

 

Agreed except <145 should be reserved for women. 

10/27/20 11:02 PM
10/20/09
Posts: 2592

Cutting weight is such a weird fucking thing. I casually fast for a week at a time because I'm a weird fuck but even then I only lose like 6-15 lbs. I couldn't imagine the dudes that go from 200 lbs to like 145 constantly. I tried cutting weight from 170 to 145 and I kinda checked out at 165. Then again I'm normally 190. 

10/28/20 3:45 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 24256

While I agree with OP's point on the jump being too big between 155 to 170, I disagree with how to fix it.

I fixed it a long time ago imo. There are 3 main complaints I see wrt the divisions. 125 is too small making the div is too weak, the jump between 155 and 170 is too much, and to a lesser extent you may hear the jump to 205 is too big as well. Here are % jump breakdowns.

 

125 to 135 = 7.7 % 

135 to 145 = 7.1 %

145 to 155 = 6.7 %

155 to 170 = 9.2 %

170 to 185 = 8.5%

185 to 205 = 10.2%

 

As you can see there is some merit that the jumps I mentioned are too big as they have the two biggest % jumps.

 

So to fix it I suggest 125 is just too small the UFC roster #'s support that, so instead it starts at 130.

 

130 to 140 = 7.4%

140 to 150 = 6.9%

150 to 160 = 6.5%

160 to 175 = 9%

175 to 190 = 8.2%

190 to 205 = 7.6%

 

The first 15lb jump starts at 160 instead of 155. Not a big change, but there doesn't need to be a big change. In order to make it perfect you'd need to do 12.5 lb jumps which I'm not sure UFC would do, they like those even #'s. Really I'd go from 150 to 162.5 to 175 to 187.5. This doesn't add any divisions in either plan and all the champs will stay in their same division. 

 

Under the OP's plan there'd be a 6.3% jump from 155 to 165 which IMO is just too small, my 6.5% jump from 150 to 160 already makes me nervous. And the 165 to 175 jump he's suggesting meaning only a 5.9% change between those divisions is ridiculous.

10/28/20 3:50 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 24257

And btw my suggestion fixes the women's divisions as well. 145 just cant bring in enough talent to sustain the division, and you're hearing rumblings of 105 which may be too small. Instead you simply go:

110,120,130,140 then you're done with the women's divisions.