UnderGround Forums Is BJJ counter-intuitive to fighting?

7/20/19 12:34 AM
6/28/19
Posts: 35

I am talking about BJJ nowadays. I understand conserving energy, but when the whole point is to outlast your opponent by using moves that would get your face smashed in in a real fight. Shouldn't the training be aggressive and take the initiative (like in wrestling)? 

I just wonder if sport-bjj is counter-productive, setting one up to be smashed in MMA. I see so many people roll around on the ground for what seems like forever, but in a real situation the dynamics would be totally different and their cardio would most likely lose out to an aggressive (maybe stronger) guy forcing himself into a dominant position to ground and pound (not to mention the stand up, clinch, wrestling beforehand if it goes that far). That is assuming the other guy knows bjj and what they are trying to do. 

Just curious about it. I understand the sport of bjj has morphed into its own thing...and that BJJ is not MMA. Just because a guy is a BJJ champ doesn't mean he will do well in MMA, and vice-versa, an MMA champ can easily get owned in a BJJ set-up. 

 

 

 

 

7/20/19 1:13 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 941
grind7or -

I am talking about BJJ nowadays. I understand conserving energy, but when the whole point is to outlast your opponent by using moves that would get your face smashed in in a real fight. Shouldn't the training be aggressive and take the initiative (like in wrestling)? 

I just wonder if sport-bjj is counter-productive, setting one up to be smashed in MMA. I see so many people roll around on the ground for what seems like forever, but in a real situation the dynamics would be totally different and their cardio would most likely lose out to an aggressive (maybe stronger) guy forcing himself into a dominant position to ground and pound (not to mention the stand up, clinch, wrestling beforehand if it goes that far). That is assuming the other guy knows bjj and what they are trying to do. 

Just curious about it. I understand the sport of bjj has morphed into its own thing...and that BJJ is not MMA. Just because a guy is a BJJ champ doesn't mean he will do well in MMA, and vice-versa, an MMA champ can easily get owned in a BJJ set-up. 

 

 

 

 

Yep so true

7/20/19 1:42 AM
10/26/05
Posts: 4014

Traditional (garcie bjj) is about outlasting and wearing down an opponent. It's more about not losing than wining. It has evolved to still be very relevant... Buts it's roots don't suit the current mma ruleset.

 

7/20/19 1:56 AM
6/28/19
Posts: 38
chupecabre -

Traditional (garcie bjj) is about outlasting and wearing down an opponent. It's more about not losing than wining. It has evolved to still be very relevant... Buts it's roots don't suit the current mma ruleset.

 

I get the wearing down an opponent to where he can't fight back. However, it seems they were able to do this before people knew what they were trying to do (choke him out, armbar, submission whatever). Now that the jig is up and people know about submissions (not that certain people didn't know before), seems the game has changed for BJJ (not necesarily MMA). 

Then again, MMA has also been altered hugely, they outlawed numerous moves that would certainly change the outcome in an all out fight. 

I think they should bring back Vale Tudo, or really no rules fights in general which Vale Tudo never was. 

Edited: 7/20/19 2:28 AM
6/28/19
Posts: 39

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I know I will be attacked for it. Look up "Rough and Tumble/gouging" It took place in the good ol' United States in the South.

"Ears, noses, lips, fingers, and genitals could be disfigured." "The best fighters, of course, were adept at other fighting skiills." "Some filed their teeth to bite off appendages more efficiently." They supposedly filled baskets with ears, noses, and eyeballs from the fights. They also reached under the pants to try and tear the genitals. 

Point being, modern-day grappling would be changed dramatically under such conditions. Striking, not so much (like the knee of Masvidal vs. Askren). However, once the fighters layed hands on each other and began wrestling/grappling things would change.

BJJ would still be of course useful and you can say that they would be better at employing these skills, but in the end it would change EVERYTHING.

I guess that's why we have sports nowadays. Back to the point, wearing an opponent down would mean much less and be much harder to do. 

 

7/20/19 3:17 AM
6/28/19
Posts: 40

...and if this fighting style from the American South wasn't nasty enough, they filed their fingernails to a point as well to be better able to scoop out eyeballs and tear at the nuts. Savage. 

7/20/19 4:10 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 9193

So I will likely get my balls broken for this BUT. You mentioned something I find very interesting: the other guy knows bjj. 

 

So you propose this question of is sport bjj counter productive to fighting but also add in both parties know bjj...

 

That should answer your question, if both parties have to know bjj to survive then no, it cant be counter productive. 

7/20/19 4:26 AM
6/28/19
Posts: 41
The Closed Guard -

So I will likely get my balls broken for this BUT. You mentioned something I find very interesting: the other guy knows bjj. 

 

So you propose this question of is sport bjj counter productive to fighting but also add in both parties know bjj...

 

That should answer your question, if both parties have to know bjj to survive then no, it cant be counter productive. 

I agree, BJJ is effective. Just was questioning how they train and rolling in situations to conserve energy that I think would get your face smashed in in MMA. It's like they want to be the cardio champ vs actually winning a real fight. Lots of arts focus on the ground like Sambo, Catch, Judo etc. but they aren't like BJJ. Guess if it is a tool to produce cardio that's great, but to fight I am not so sure. Seems like they are setting themselves up to be dominated and ground and pounded by a more athletic, aggressive opponent that is going to get on top of them. Just my 2 cents. 

7/20/19 4:40 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 9198
grind7or -
The Closed Guard -

So I will likely get my balls broken for this BUT. You mentioned something I find very interesting: the other guy knows bjj. 

 

So you propose this question of is sport bjj counter productive to fighting but also add in both parties know bjj...

 

That should answer your question, if both parties have to know bjj to survive then no, it cant be counter productive. 

I agree, BJJ is effective. Just was questioning how they train and rolling in situations to conserve energy that I think would get your face smashed in in MMA. It's like they want to be the cardio champ vs actually winning a real fight. Lots of arts focus on the ground like Sambo, Catch, Judo etc. but they aren't like BJJ. Guess if it is a tool to produce cardio that's great, but to fight I am not so sure. Seems like they are setting themselves up to be dominated and ground and pounded by a more athletic, aggressive opponent that is going to get on top of them. Just my 2 cents. 

But look at all the sport bjj based guys doing fine in MMA

 

Gilbert Burns, Maia, Jacare, Shoeface, Werdum. 

 

If any of these guys get you down, you likely arent surviving. 

7/20/19 5:06 AM
5/30/15
Posts: 2348

I'm curious where you get that the whole point of bjj is to outlast your opponent. 

7/20/19 7:57 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 9200
Gartlin -

I'm curious where you get that the whole point of bjj is to outlast your opponent. 

Was that not the goal? Smaller person out cardios the bigger then attacks

7/20/19 9:13 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 4381

Your cardio argument is off when it comes to BJJ and self defense. Just because someone runs marathons doesn't mean they couldn't out sprint Joe Blow if they had to

7/20/19 9:19 AM
7/25/13
Posts: 10411

Preparing for any sport is rule specific. If someone doesn’t train specifically for the rule/skill set of the sport they are competing in, they are at a significant disadvantage. It is as simple as that. 

7/20/19 10:07 AM
2/7/08
Posts: 6518
BJJ WAS competing and proving its effectiveness against other martial arts, and BJJ won. NOW everyone knows BJJ and it's competing against itself.
7/20/19 10:48 AM
10/26/05
Posts: 4016
Gartlin -

I'm curious where you get that the whole point of bjj is to outlast your opponent. 

That's kinda the most badoc principle... Stall the fight until your at a place to take advantage. 

7/20/19 11:05 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 7075
The Closed Guard -
Gartlin -

I'm curious where you get that the whole point of bjj is to outlast your opponent. 

Was that not the goal? Smaller person out cardios the bigger then attacks

Watch Gracie’s in action

they definitely are not trying to outlast

 

7/20/19 11:59 AM
3/24/15
Posts: 1106

Catch Wrestling is what you’re looking for in an aggressive, submission grappling-based style 

7/20/19 12:58 PM
6/28/19
Posts: 42
Brian McLaughlin -

Your cardio argument is off when it comes to BJJ and self defense. Just because someone runs marathons doesn't mean they couldn't out sprint Joe Blow if they had to

Wasn't talking just about cardio, but the positions they are training in while trying to outlast their opponent. If you train to be on your back for long periods of time then your muscle memory and experience will probably have you trying that in MMA. I don't think laying on your back in MMA is the best idea. 

7/20/19 3:14 PM
1/3/08
Posts: 3632

The whole point of bjj is to submit your opponent, the whole point of boxing is to knock out your opponent.

when your opponent is also skilled in the same disciplines you are then of course conditioning/endurance comes into play.

Go roll with a black belt and see how much endurance he needs to use.

7/20/19 5:17 PM
1/7/09
Posts: 3778

Took Royce about 2 minutes to beat his early ifc opponents

7/20/19 5:32 PM
7/24/14
Posts: 1026

I take it OP has never seen ufc 1, 2, or 3

 

bjj is only a bad idea if you’re alone and the guy you’re fighting has friends nearby 

7/20/19 6:14 PM
12/9/14
Posts: 243
DollawayGotFistedByAPillow -

I take it OP has never seen ufc 1, 2, or 3

 

bjj is only a bad idea if you’re alone and the guy you’re fighting has friends nearby 

Modern bjj is a disgrace to Gracie jj. Almost completely useless in a chaotic street fight. In a man to man duel It could be useful if they guy you are fighting have zero ground game. In a bar or other situation where you and your friends fight a couple other dudes, last place I would like to be is on the ground trying to submit my opponent. 

For those type of situations judo and wrestling is far superior.  A judo throw on hard floor is a guaranteed good night and on to the next opponent. How the hell are you expected to conduct your self in a fight of you start all sparring sessions on your butt. 

7/20/19 6:16 PM
12/9/14
Posts: 244
grind7or -

I am talking about BJJ nowadays. I understand conserving energy, but when the whole point is to outlast your opponent by using moves that would get your face smashed in in a real fight. Shouldn't the training be aggressive and take the initiative (like in wrestling)? 

I just wonder if sport-bjj is counter-productive, setting one up to be smashed in MMA. I see so many people roll around on the ground for what seems like forever, but in a real situation the dynamics would be totally different and their cardio would most likely lose out to an aggressive (maybe stronger) guy forcing himself into a dominant position to ground and pound (not to mention the stand up, clinch, wrestling beforehand if it goes that far). That is assuming the other guy knows bjj and what they are trying to do. 

Just curious about it. I understand the sport of bjj has morphed into its own thing...and that BJJ is not MMA. Just because a guy is a BJJ champ doesn't mean he will do well in MMA, and vice-versa, an MMA champ can easily get owned in a BJJ set-up. 

 

 

 

 

Modern bjj is gonna end up in the same space as tkd. When I trained tkd in the early 90s, it was actually good. Nowadays it all turned to shit. 

Seems that once a martial art gets introduced to the US, it gets devalued after a few years. 

7/20/19 6:56 PM
10/11/18
Posts: 2805

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that I'm gonna totally catch some heat for this post.  In addition, and I know y'all are gonna roast me endlessly about this, but it is worth mentioning that the vast majority of you will most likely tar and feather me for replying in this way.  

 

Anyway, just my $0.02

7/20/19 7:08 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 35167
Just roll with aggression in mind. Shouldn't be that hard to figure it. If you want to train more realistically, then roll like you would if you were in a streetfight, but still be a good training partner.