UnderGround Forums PRIDE Steroid Exclusion Clause

7/20/14 2:36 AM
11/26/13
Posts: 290
More reasons why Pride was better Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 4:00 AM
8/17/13
Posts: 2005
Interesting to have it confirmed.

Enjoying the book too Enson. Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 8:28 AM
1/17/11
Posts: 1029
MMA Translations - EKPOGI, thanks for posting the interview. It was also very cool of Enson to post this, but anyone who read that interview back in the day knew it already.

obviously japan knows about steroid testing for the olympics and various pro sports, but there is less of a stigma attached to it there. last time i checked many of them were legal. legality is another reason why it's not part of the contract while illegal narcotics are a part of it. (plus, you can be charged with drug possession in japan for only having the drug in your system - could they charge you with smuggling, leading to legal issues for DSE? i don't know.)

also, steroid prescriptions are written in japan for health issues that you might get tylenol for in the states. it seems very easy to get a hold of them here.

steroid use is (again obviously) huge in japanese pro-wrestling, and with the way puroresu crossed over with JMMA, you have to expect at least some of the local fighters were also juiced.

Enson, if you read this far, could we see the Japanese version of that part? Thanks!

It's all in kanji and I can't read it.  Regaurdless it's the English contract foreigners go by.

7/20/14 9:45 AM
8/1/03
Posts: 82700
"Fedor won his first 4 fights on US soil by finish including taking out his 2 top UFC rivals of his era. Then in his losses, it didnt look like he was physically not up to par. It was the lack of his strategy and discipline he had in Pride. You attribute that to the juice? "

Even his biggest fanboys (now) say he looked and performed totally differently even in those wins. There's no denying he was significantly smaller for almost all of those fights. The guy who used to be able to go 20 minutes at a high pace now seemed almost desperate to finish every fight in the first round. He looked physically different.

"Shogun won went 1/1 in his first 2 US fights (IFC) losing to Babalu when he was 22, then beat Randleman and Reem in Pride US fights then bombed vs Forrest in his debut. Then went thru the first of his well documented battles with his knee surgeries and worked his way back up and ended the Machida era and won the dam belt and also avenged that loss to Forrest in complete dominating fashion. "

The Machida fights are really his only impressive ones in his entire UFC career. He used to be known for his energy and cardio and in the UFC it is routinely described as his biggest weakness. Yes, he has had knee issues but so have many many fighters, including GSP.

Honestly I'm not even sure what the point of this breakdown is. These guys were professional athletes, they fought in an organization in which they could use steroids and by some accounts were *encouraged* to use steroids, and most or all of them had teammates who were busted at one time or another. Why on earth would anyone even attempt to argue they weren't using? A better question might be why wouldn't they be? It's not even a question of honor since it wasn't even cheating.
7/20/14 12:22 PM
1/30/10
Posts: 1127
NatualBornTickler - Who cares pride was the shit Phone Post 3.0

From a legit sports perspective, it's fucking bull shit.
7/20/14 2:22 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50746
Non N00B - 
Wasa-B - 
orcus - lol @ Pride fanboys. It's all about budo and honor, right! And the steroid testing had NOTHING to do with why Shogun, Crocop, Fedor, etc, all looked and performed differently the second they hit American soil.

Cmon man. Do we have to go thru this at this point?

Fedor won his first 4 fights on US soil by finish including taking out his 2 top UFC rivals of his era. Then in his losses, it didnt look like he was physically not up to par. It was the lack of his strategy and discipline he had in Pride. You attribute that to the juice?

Shogun won went 1/1 in his first 2 US fights (IFC) losing to Babalu when he was 22, then beat Randleman and Reem in Pride US fights then bombed vs Forrest in his debut. Then went thru the first of his well documented battles with his knee surgeries and worked his way back up and ended the Machida era and won the dam belt and also avenged that loss to Forrest in complete dominating fashion.

CC for sure fell off.

What about Nog? He went mixed in the UFC but still won the interim belt by also beating one of the top UFC rivals of his era and also beat another one in Randy. He could have lost to Ricco, sure. But it was still a close fight.

Wand i think had a pretty steady decline from the end of Pride, arguably losing to Arona twice, KTFO to CC, KTFO to Hendo (looking like he hadnt fully recovered from the CC KTFO imo)and coming up short against Chuck in his debut after those big KTFOs but still giving a good fight.

What about Rampage owning Chuck in Pride and in the UFC?

Gomi and Kang and Kid had all lost a few prior to coming to the UFC but acted like they were all still on 15 fight win streaks and suddenly got beat in the US.

The only fighter who had the sudden decline and never found his form in the UFC was CC. Thats all i can think of. Is there anyone else?



THIS

Cro Cop fell off because of the cage, then getting ko'd by Gonzaga ruined him. Also it seemed like in the Eddie Sanchez fight as if somebody had told him to MAKE it a head kick knockout.

Yes, i think the cage was just one factor but not everything though. He admitted not being prepared for elbows on the ground which is what did him in against Gonzaga really and then i think then is aura was never the same.

Anyhow, i would still saw CC is the only 1 that really fell off. All the other guys did really good to ok to having reasonably declines over time due to their age and timelines.
7/20/14 2:26 PM
7/20/07
Posts: 7696
In unrelated, but equally as shocking news, NO FUCKING SHIT! Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 2:31 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50747
orcus - "Fedor won his first 4 fights on US soil by finish including taking out his 2 top UFC rivals of his era. Then in his losses, it didnt look like he was physically not up to par. It was the lack of his strategy and discipline he had in Pride. You attribute that to the juice? "

Even his biggest fanboys (now) say he looked and performed totally differently even in those wins. There's no denying he was significantly smaller for almost all of those fights. The guy who used to be able to go 20 minutes at a high pace now seemed almost desperate to finish every fight in the first round. He looked physically different.

"Shogun won went 1/1 in his first 2 US fights (IFC) losing to Babalu when he was 22, then beat Randleman and Reem in Pride US fights then bombed vs Forrest in his debut. Then went thru the first of his well documented battles with his knee surgeries and worked his way back up and ended the Machida era and won the dam belt and also avenged that loss to Forrest in complete dominating fashion. "

The Machida fights are really his only impressive ones in his entire UFC career. He used to be known for his energy and cardio and in the UFC it is routinely described as his biggest weakness. Yes, he has had knee issues but so have many many fighters, including GSP.

Honestly I'm not even sure what the point of this breakdown is. These guys were professional athletes, they fought in an organization in which they could use steroids and by some accounts were *encouraged* to use steroids, and most or all of them had teammates who were busted at one time or another. Why on earth would anyone even attempt to argue they weren't using? A better question might be why wouldn't they be? It's not even a question of honor since it wasn't even cheating.

Orcus, you know though im still a Fedor and Pride fan, hopefully would not consider me a fanboy of either. Ive backed you up in criticizing those who go overboard in praising both.

If you think Fedor was juicing and stopped for the US and that was the reason for his decline, so be it. I do not share that opinion but none of us can prove it so all we can give is our opinion.

Im not sure at what point his size started to decline, which was from, what 233sih to...225ish? The biggest change that i saw to his game though was his decline in his fighting discipline and grappling. He outstruck CC but his grappling (on the ground) started to look out of tune back then. And then, steadily he became a head hunter and then there were also chatter of him not training as much later on, finding god, etc.

Whatever the case, against Werdum, he would never had made that mistake back when he was fighting Nog, in fact, he didnt. Same with Hendo, yes, his wrestling was never his strong point but he committed the same kind of overaggressive GNP while forgetting about his position there.

I dont see the link between becoming an overeliant aggressive headhunter at the decline of his other parts of the game (grappling, strategy, patience) with PEDs necessarily myself.

This is a difference of opinion between us. You know i always though his SNB ability was not that great and a wrestler like Randy would have given him trouble - not that i dont think Fedor could have KOed Randy either.

7/20/14 2:46 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50748
"The Machida fights are really his only impressive ones in his entire UFC career. He used to be known for his energy and cardio and in the UFC it is routinely described as his biggest weakness. Yes, he has had knee issues but so have many many fighters, including GSP."

But the point is that he won the UFC title. So he won a title (GP) in Pride and the UFC. Also, he was never unbeatable in Pride right? We both remember the Rog fight which could have went either way. Also, i always point this out but...he got lucky vs Arona. Arona rocked himself off the miss throw ala Lindland/Vitale.

Anyhow, again, i cant say whether PEDs was a factor for Shogun or not. He was flabby in Pride (when he was younger) and got a bit flabbier in the UFC when he got older and went thru multiple knee surgeries.

Also, GSP got thru it but thats GSP. I dont think Shogun had neither the motivation nor resources that Shogun had to rehab like GSP did. Also, GSP only had 1 surgery iirc. Shogun had 2 or 3?

Is it a coincdence that Shogun cant seem to kick anymore and became more of a punch heavy brawler due to lack of mobility? He still showed good skill too as recently as the 2nd Hendo fight before getting HBombed. Again, i dont know if PEDs was a factor for him or not but i think the timeline and his circumstances seem quite plausible.

He was not gonna beat Jones anyhow and his injuries took a toll but still was the first to even win a round against Machida and ended Machida's run. Its also not insignificant that he avenged the Forrest loss in dominating fashion since people still bring up that loss up.
7/20/14 3:00 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50749
"Honestly I'm not even sure what the point of this breakdown is. These guys were professional athletes, they fought in an organization in which they could use steroids and by some accounts were *encouraged* to use steroids, and most or all of them had teammates who were busted at one time or another. Why on earth would anyone even attempt to argue they weren't using? A better question might be why wouldn't they be? It's not even a question of honor since it wasn't even cheating."

I never said they werent using. I just said it doesnt prove all were. I also do not see an obvious and sudden drop off in performance with Fedor and Shogun for example and listed the reasons why i think so above.

I have agreed with you on the double standard on everyone scapegoating Vitor recently and i agree that its not a question of honour or cheating. I just dont see it as the primary factor in how Fedor and Shogun's career transpired from the Pride era thru the recent years in the UFC, US....
7/20/14 3:19 PM
2/15/12
Posts: 2409
theBrink - Lol Pride was awesome, but they were on some other shit and it was obvious, you couldn't fight as often as they did and hard as they did without something like that. Sylvia got caught juicing and he is the first guy I know of UFC wise to do it. At the risk of sounding like a shill, Dana, Lorenzo and company came in and made this a sport, not a freak show. Makes me sad to think rampage wasn't clean. Wonder if chuck was in their first fight Phone Post 3.0
Chack was clean (well at least when it came to steroid testing). He clearly would have failed the PRIDE drug testing. Chuck never fluctuated in weight, was never muscular, never had a career resurgence after turning 33 (these are the most obvious of the signs). He did however enjoy a good party. Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 3:34 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13898
Makes you wonder wtf Dana was thinking.

He was sending Chuck into a lions den of juiced up animals.
7/20/14 3:50 PM
1/27/12
Posts: 425
I think PEDs should be allowed under doctor supervision to protect the health of the athlete.

PEDs make for longer careers and faster recovery from injury.
7/20/14 5:15 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50750
Whambo - Makes you wonder wtf Dana was thinking.

He was sending Chuck into a lions den of juiced up animals.

Rampage beat him in the ufc as well.
7/20/14 6:15 PM
4/20/08
Posts: 5647
Liddel and Couture were likely using HGH, they had the money, and the testing wasnt there. I would say Tito also. Broke mofos like Sylvia and Barnett tried traditional steroids without the right people assisting them and got popped.
7/20/14 8:57 PM
1/17/11
Posts: 1030
MMA Translations - 
Enson Yamato Inoue - 
MMA Translations - EKPOGI, thanks for posting the interview. It was also very cool of Enson to post this, but anyone who read that interview back in the day knew it already.

obviously japan knows about steroid testing for the olympics and various pro sports, but there is less of a stigma attached to it there. last time i checked many of them were legal. legality is another reason why it's not part of the contract while illegal narcotics are a part of it. (plus, you can be charged with drug possession in japan for only having the drug in your system - could they charge you with smuggling, leading to legal issues for DSE? i don't know.)

also, steroid prescriptions are written in japan for health issues that you might get tylenol for in the states. it seems very easy to get a hold of them here.

steroid use is (again obviously) huge in japanese pro-wrestling, and with the way puroresu crossed over with JMMA, you have to expect at least some of the local fighters were also juiced.

Enson, if you read this far, could we see the Japanese version of that part? Thanks!

It's all in kanji and I can't read it.  Regaurdless it's the English contract foreigners go by.


Thanks, I was just wondering if the Japanese fighters got the same thing.

Hmmmm  I wonder.  I doubt any Japanese fighters were doing any PED.  It's almost impossible to get them here in Japan, especially back in that day.

7/20/14 9:29 PM
4/11/06
Posts: 2661
Why is this a shock. Half the dudes that were in pride fighting middleweight and light heavy look like they can make light weight or welterweight with little to no difficulty these days. But it damn sure made some exciting fights Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 2:16 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 50762
Enson Yamato Inoue - 
MMA Translations - 
Enson Yamato Inoue - 
MMA Translations - EKPOGI, thanks for posting the interview. It was also very cool of Enson to post this, but anyone who read that interview back in the day knew it already.

obviously japan knows about steroid testing for the olympics and various pro sports, but there is less of a stigma attached to it there. last time i checked many of them were legal. legality is another reason why it's not part of the contract while illegal narcotics are a part of it. (plus, you can be charged with drug possession in japan for only having the drug in your system - could they charge you with smuggling, leading to legal issues for DSE? i don't know.)

also, steroid prescriptions are written in japan for health issues that you might get tylenol for in the states. it seems very easy to get a hold of them here.

steroid use is (again obviously) huge in japanese pro-wrestling, and with the way puroresu crossed over with JMMA, you have to expect at least some of the local fighters were also juiced.

Enson, if you read this far, could we see the Japanese version of that part? Thanks!

It's all in kanji and I can't read it.  Regaurdless it's the English contract foreigners go by.


Thanks, I was just wondering if the Japanese fighters got the same thing.

Hmmmm  I wonder.  I doubt any Japanese fighters were doing any PED.  It's almost impossible to get them here in Japan, especially back in that day.


Has there been any major bust of a Japanese athlete in international competition for PEDs, Olympics, anything? I cant think of any.
7/21/14 2:30 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 50764
Btw, Orcus, i dunno, did Fedor ever look this ripped in Pride? I know its an in action shot and like i said, he was listed at 233 in Pride and we all know he was pudgy then. Ok, i just checked his weight for the Rodger fight and it was.....232.

http://www.sherdog.com/thumbnail_crop.php?image=http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/20091108114510_IMG_9587.JPG&&width_size=600

Against AA, 230. Seriously, does he look any diff whatsover here?
http://urdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fedoraa.jpg

Against Timmeh, 230.

Werdum, 229.

Bigfoot, 230.

The lowest he came in i believe was for the Hendo fight at 223.
7/21/14 3:45 AM
3/6/13
Posts: 1856
I wonder if the fights in the states like PRIDE 33 tested for roids Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 4:24 AM
7/7/12
Posts: 1560
MrHughes1991 - I wonder if the fights in the states like PRIDE 33 tested for roids Phone Post 3.0

They did yeah, I mean Diaz got popped for weed after beating Gomi
7/21/14 4:24 AM
7/7/12
Posts: 1561
Oh, yeah you mean for roids too, well I assume they did since the NSAC handled the event like any other one in their state.
7/21/14 4:35 AM
4/1/13
Posts: 1964
I don't get the argument that "when the pride guys fought in America they didn't do that badly- so the steroids didn't really make a difference"

Just taking steroids will give minimal advantages, when you've been able to work on your skillset and conditioning an extra 3 hours a working day for 5 years then your skillset remains after the roids stop.

Added on to this fighters in the UFC and pride can/could just cycle earlier for camps. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 5:57 AM
8/1/03
Posts: 82710
" I just dont see it as the primary factor in how Fedor and Shogun's career transpired from the Pride era thru the recent years in the UFC, US...."

You are correct, I don't know if it was the primary factor or not. I do believe it was a significant factor.

7/21/14 2:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50765
orcus - " I just dont see it as the primary factor in how Fedor and Shogun's career transpired from the Pride era thru the recent years in the UFC, US...."

You are correct, I don't know if it was the primary factor or not. I do believe it was a significant factor.


Thats fine, we're not gonna change each other's minds though i did also list Fedor's US weigh in weights above. The only significant difference was for the Hendo fight.