UnderGround Forums Prime Saku vs prime Nick Diaz

5/15/19 7:49 PM
4/29/09
Posts: 62474

The fans

5/15/19 8:05 PM
1/12/05
Posts: 62050

Saku had the best single leg in the game and Nick isn't the best at stopping TDs. Diaz is really durable, though, and I've never seen him in trouble on the ground. I thought the reach would have greatly favored Nick, but he's only got 2" on Sak. I have trouble imagining either guy getting finished early. A back and forth bloody mess until someone can't go anymore. 

5/15/19 8:13 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 4341
Either Sak by leg kicks or Diaz by body punches.
5/15/19 9:43 PM
8/15/07
Posts: 15498
Saku is one of the top three best ever in the fight game. I'm a big fan of Nick's, but he's not beating Saku.
5/15/19 9:48 PM
2/2/15
Posts: 7150

Sak. All fucking day, son.

5/15/19 9:54 PM
11/20/09
Posts: 40122

Man what a super interesting hypothetical match up

 

I keep going back and forth

 

Initially I picked Diaz.  Boxing, cardio....

 

But then I think about Sak's advantages, size, and unpredicability.  Both are GREAT SHOWMAN so this would have been a fantastic fight no matter what the results!

 

Sak lost in his prime to a beefed up Wanderlie more than likely on peds.  I dont see 170lb Diaz possessing that type of ko power.  Diaz would have to do to Saku what he did to Gomi, and that is a totally different animal when talking about Sakuraba....

 

But how does Sakuraba beat Nick?  Subission?  I doubt it.  Ko?  I doubt it.  Man I would have loved to have seen that fight play out!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1nRoscqDxE

5/15/19 10:16 PM
6/26/06
Posts: 11185
D241 - 

Man what a super interesting hypothetical match up

 

I keep going back and forth

 

Initially I picked Diaz.  Boxing, cardio....

 

But then I think about Sak's advantages, size, and unpredicability.  Both are GREAT SHOWMAN so this would have been a fantastic fight no matter what the results!

 

Sak lost in his prime to a beefed up Wanderlie more than likely on peds.  I dont see 170lb Diaz possessing that type of ko power.  Diaz would have to do to Saku what he did to Gomi, and that is a totally different animal when talking about Sakuraba....

 

But how does Sakuraba beat Nick?  Subission?  I doubt it.  Ko?  I doubt it.  Man I would have loved to have seen that fight play out!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1nRoscqDxE


You doubt a submission from a guy that kimura'd Renzo's arm off? Saku fractures something of Nick's sooner or later.
5/15/19 10:18 PM
7/4/11
Posts: 4044

Nick will put a pace on saku that it will be too much

5/15/19 10:22 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 58815
Did we ever see Saku get tired in his prime (or ever)?

Did we ever see any of the Diaz bros beat a sub competent wrestler?

5/15/19 10:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 58816
As far as size, they would be similar.
5/15/19 10:24 PM
6/27/05
Posts: 25366

Saku leg kicks

5/15/19 10:41 PM
11/20/09
Posts: 40126
RenatoCocopreta - 
D241 - 

Man what a super interesting hypothetical match up

 

I keep going back and forth

 

Initially I picked Diaz.  Boxing, cardio....

 

But then I think about Sak's advantages, size, and unpredicability.  Both are GREAT SHOWMAN so this would have been a fantastic fight no matter what the results!

 

Sak lost in his prime to a beefed up Wanderlie more than likely on peds.  I dont see 170lb Diaz possessing that type of ko power.  Diaz would have to do to Saku what he did to Gomi, and that is a totally different animal when talking about Sakuraba....

 

But how does Sakuraba beat Nick?  Subission?  I doubt it.  Ko?  I doubt it.  Man I would have loved to have seen that fight play out!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1nRoscqDxE


You doubt a submission from a guy that kimura'd Renzo's arm off? Saku fractures something of Nick's sooner or later.

Close your eyes and imagine Sakuraba submitting someone.  Don't know about you, but I saw a red/orange haired Sakuraba doing a kimura.

 

Now, close your eyes and imagine Nick Diaz tapping.  What do you see?  I can't see what he's tapping to.  

5/15/19 10:42 PM
11/20/09
Posts: 40127
Stu Cazzo - 

Saku leg kicks


Good point.  Very well could be a difference maker. 

 

I think another aspect of this hypothetical match up is when the fighters would know about the fight.  Sakuraba was the "IQ Fighter" and could know ahead of time the perfect gameplan for Nick, and train a few weeks in advance for it. 

 

But sometimes Pride wouldn't make match ups until a week out from the event.  Could Sakuraba still figure out the perfect gameplan?  Possibly.  Probably.

5/16/19 12:54 AM
11/30/14
Posts: 2451

Anyone have a breakdown on how they think prime Minowaman vs prime Nate goes? 

30 days ago
6/2/04
Posts: 9150
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.
30 days ago
8/26/02
Posts: 6849
Wasa-B - As far as size, they would be similar.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/6/2/1498544/nick-diaz-and-sakuraba-after-their

thank you

saw people saying Saku had a size advantage and that is not true
30 days ago
8/26/02
Posts: 6850
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.


most of the "losses" you listed were debatable decisions

He beat Joe Riggs in the rematch in the hospital

beat KJ Noons in the rematch

made the Natural Born Killer turn into a point fighter for 5 rounds (I had Diaz winning, baby leg kicks should not have counted so much)

would have liked to see round 4 vs Diego, that was a good scrap



30 days ago
1/12/05
Posts: 62066
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.

I think our issue is, no one envisions Diaz getting finished. This thing would be an Ironman fight to the finish, not a point fight. Saku is 100x more accomplished, and the much greater fighter, but it's a hard one to play out mentally. 

30 days ago
6/2/04
Posts: 9156
endochokedme - 
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.


most of the "losses" you listed were debatable decisions

He beat Joe Riggs in the rematch in the hospital

beat KJ Noons in the rematch

made the Natural Born Killer turn into a point fighter for 5 rounds (I had Diaz winning, baby leg kicks should not have counted so much)

would have liked to see round 4 vs Diego, that was a good scrap




OK...so those 5 losses don't really count? Well let me ask you this...if Saku fought those guys, would any of the fights have ended in controversial decisions? Look at the guys Saku was fighting...compare his wins/losses to Nick's. Come on, man. Only on the UG would this even be a debate.

I'm not saying Diaz sucks. He was a really good fighter, but he lost to a lot of guys who were better than him, and this place still talks about him as if he's one of the best ever.
30 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 16758
Rickmassmma - 
endochokedme - 
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.


most of the "losses" you listed were debatable decisions

He beat Joe Riggs in the rematch in the hospital

beat KJ Noons in the rematch

made the Natural Born Killer turn into a point fighter for 5 rounds (I had Diaz winning, baby leg kicks should not have counted so much)

would have liked to see round 4 vs Diego, that was a good scrap




OK...so those 5 losses don't really count? Well let me ask you this...if Saku fought those guys, would any of the fights have ended in controversial decisions? Look at the guys Saku was fighting...compare his wins/losses to Nick's. Come on, man. Only on the UG would this even be a debate.

I'm not saying Diaz sucks. He was a really good fighter, but he lost to a lot of guys who were better than him, and this place still talks about him as if he's one of the best ever.


The Diaz brothers -- and I might argue moreso Nick -- had a somewhat unorthodox approach to boxing for MMA that served them well.
It wasn't impossible to figure out.
But there was a seriously effective method there that was difficult to train for and easy to underestimate through tape study.
The solid BJJ just made the boxing more effective.

Less power/energy = greater volume and an accumulative damage that builds up over time.

I've never sparred with the Diaz brothers.
But I have spared with some very big HWs, and I think there is a comparison to be drawn here.

There is something to be said for deceptive movement.

Big/long fighters might look somewhat slow in tape study.
But when you're standing in front of them, the punches seem to just be there consistently, and the smaller man is is forced to use angles and adapt his timing.

So the big man is percieved as being slower -- yet in real physical movement his punches are in your face surprisingly fast -- and there is a linear foundation of power behind them that just makes everything more serious.

Obviously, the Diaz brothers aren't big men.
But having never spared with them, I can o ly make a logical comparison to deceptively "fast" big men.

The height and reach means that less physical energy is required to travel the same distance.
So an arm punch without much "wind-up", is hitting its mark faster than it looks -- and the transfer of weight combined with a solid linear skeletal foundation -- makes it more impactful than it may seem from an audiance perspective.

From my humble observation, the Diaz brothers seem to have some of that deceptive quality in their boxing.
The punches are hitting their mark with seemingly less effort and movement overall.
So if its deceptively effective from a spectator view point -- the effect is going to be considerably amplified when starting standing in front of them.


So yeah -- Nick and Nate are kind of legendary MMA fighters, often viewed as having something special ahead of the learning curve.

IMO, it absolutely took a special kind of fighter with matchup favorable abilities to beat a Nick Diaz.

Where I think a guy like Nick fell off a bit, was in the area of bringing a more varied striking game, using 8 weapons instead of 2.
That Is also an area where i think BJ Penn -- as great as he was -- failed to evolve in terms of the all-around mixed martial artist.


Well a guy like Sakuraba was about as dynamic as you get.
He could hold his own nearly anywhere with anyone -- and look good doing it.
He had the punches, kicks, takedowns, TDD, subs, etc.
He also had very high level ring generalship -- one of the best ever in that aspect IMO.

So a high level guy like Sak -- who has a resume of competing with and beating more dangerous fighters overall than Nick -- is also going to be that guy that doesn't fall for Nick's deceptively striking (at least not for long).

Sak always had somewhere else to go, which made him generally a step ahead in terms of transition.


Not counting Nick out, and I am a fan.

But Sak has to be the clear favorite here.
29 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 58827
endochokedme - 
Wasa-B - As far as size, they would be similar.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/6/2/1498544/nick-diaz-and-sakuraba-after-their

thank you

saw people saying Saku had a size advantage and that is not true

Saku was WW size in his prime and then got fatter towards the end. Diaz is a big WW/small MW. Diaz is a bit taller, Saku a bit thicker. Pretty even in overall size.
29 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 58828
Rickmassmma - 
endochokedme - 
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.


most of the "losses" you listed were debatable decisions

He beat Joe Riggs in the rematch in the hospital

beat KJ Noons in the rematch

made the Natural Born Killer turn into a point fighter for 5 rounds (I had Diaz winning, baby leg kicks should not have counted so much)

would have liked to see round 4 vs Diego, that was a good scrap




OK...so those 5 losses don't really count? Well let me ask you this...if Saku fought those guys, would any of the fights have ended in controversial decisions? Look at the guys Saku was fighting...compare his wins/losses to Nick's. Come on, man. Only on the UG would this even be a debate.

I'm not saying Diaz sucks. He was a really good fighter, but he lost to a lot of guys who were better than him, and this place still talks about him as if he's one of the best ever.

One key takeaway is the decision losses to Diego and Karo. Saku as the stronger wrestler can emulate that. He wouldn't do much to Diaz on the ground but he could win a decision the same way those guys did. He is a better wrestler than both those guys and more sub savvy.
28 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 15506
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.

Diaz should have gotten the nod in three, if not four, of those fights. Shitty judging cost him.
27 days ago
6/2/04
Posts: 9159
Soul Gravy -
Rickmassmma - 
WaltJ - 

As much as I don't want to say it,  probably Diaz, as Diaz was a more evolved fighter in his prime with boxing being the main difference. 


Except Diaz in his prime lost to Diego Sanchez, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk, KJ Noons and Carlos Condit. Obviously some great fighters in there, but if you ask people on here if Joe Riggs was better than Diaz, or Diego was better than Diaz...this place would be filled with people talking about how much better Diaz was than those guys, completely ignoring that he lost to them.

I like watching him fight, but he looks like a god when he's blowing away guys he should blow away, but his record against tough opponents isn't great. This place has an unhealthy obsession with the guy, and were talking about him coming back and winning the welterweight title recently. It's nuts.

Diaz should have gotten the nod in three, if not four, of those fights. Shitty judging cost him.

OK, fine...call them all split decision wins for Nick. While he was "winning" razor thin decisions over Diego, Riggs, Sherk etc Sakuraba was beating guys like Renzo Gracie, Rampage Jackson, Randleman, Carlos Newton, Vitor Belfort etc...and was finishing those guys, not winning close decisions. 

If they actually fought it would have gone down like a lot of Nick's fights. He would have talked shit, lost, then acted like the guy was a bitch for not wanting to fight in the way that was most advantageous to Nick. 

27 days ago
10/4/18
Posts: 1557
Sak.