UnderGround Forums Should people Cross train boxing and Muay Thai?

26 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31611

Says it all in the OP. Do you think it’s the right move or likely not? And I don’t mean light cross training, ie a boxer will do Muay Thai once a week or vice versa, but a true 50%/50% split, where someone will box in the morning for 5-6 days a week and they’ll do Muay Thai and Jits later that night.

 

The benefits seem pretty obvious, you’re ostensibly putting in 12 hours of striking training a week and you’ll quickly envelop your peers. The downsides seem pretty real though, you very well could have two different coaches telling you to do two different things. Imagine a boxing coach forcing you to fight from a bladed stance and your Muay Thai coach instilling some traditional Thai bullshit stance during your training sessions.

 

What do you think?

26 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31616

 

25 days ago
3/7/05
Posts: 31030
Man I miss K-1
25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31617
BigWilliam - Man I miss K-1

Glory son...

25 days ago
5/14/08
Posts: 10031

http://forum.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.frame&thread=2718769&page=1

25 days ago
10/14/02
Posts: 3774
yes they should but after having a solid base in one of them
25 days ago
2/13/16
Posts: 4404

Well what’s your goal here?  To compete in boxing and compete in Muay Thai? Kickboxing? Mma?

When you’re training at the boxing gym are you training in a traditional boxing stance or are you more squared up/marching?

Muay Thai purists gyms are lacking in hands IMO.  The best Muay Thai gym I’ve ever been to was more Dutch styled and they had great hand techniques incorporated into the curriculum.  They also had a separate boxing class that was boxing for Muay Thai.  I will say though that my background in boxing helped a lot when I transitioned to Muay Thai because my hand speed and technique was already pretty good.

 

So it can’t hurt to develop your hands but I wouldn’t work with a boxing trainer with traditional boxing stances unless I was planning on competing in boxing.  

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31619
Darth Potato -

Well what’s your goal here?  To compete in boxing and compete in Muay Thai? Kickboxing? Mma?

When you’re training at the boxing gym are you training in a traditional boxing stance or are you more squared up/marching?

Muay Thai purists gyms are lacking in hands IMO.  The best Muay Thai gym I’ve ever been to was more Dutch styled and they had great hand techniques incorporated into the curriculum.  They also had a separate boxing class that was boxing for Muay Thai.  I will say though that my background in boxing helped a lot when I transitioned to Muay Thai because my hand speed and technique was already pretty good.

 

So it can’t hurt to develop your hands but I wouldn’t work with a boxing trainer with traditional boxing stances unless I was planning on competing in boxing.  

So you’re saying try and find a Dutch style gym? 

 

From what ive seen even the best Dutch style kickboxers lack basic boxing technique. Yes, their hands look good, but they still employ that death march, and their defense is often for shit (head movement, and lower body movement).

25 days ago
1/16/12
Posts: 6000

It’s best if you incorporate it yourself the way you see fit. 

I think you should learn boxing first because the boxing stance isn’t always ideal when it comes to MMA imo. Learn to improve on the basics & then pick up Muay Thai.

Incorporate Boxing into your Muay Thai. I also think the Dutch style lacks as much as the Thai style lacks. The Dutch style uses a lot bigger gloves also from what I see. 

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31620
Acidic -

It’s best if you incorporate it yourself the way you see fit. 

I think you should learn boxing first because the boxing stance isn’t always ideal when it comes to MMA imo. Learn to improve on the basics & then pick up Muay Thai.

Incorporate Boxing into your Muay Thai. I also think the Dutch style lacks as much as the Thai style lacks. The Dutch style uses a lot bigger gloves also from what I see. 

I mean you can always insist on using a squared stance. Not every boxer fights from a bladed stance, almost every coach has their own approach. 

 

Look at GGG and Tyson for example, low squared up stance to generate max power.

25 days ago
3/7/05
Posts: 31039
Uhtred Ragnarson - 
BigWilliam - Man I miss K-1

Glory son...


Glory is great, I watch it when I can. But the K-1 Grand Prix just had a certain magic about it. Old school tourney. If Glory did one it would be awesome.
25 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 13441

I’ve taken kickboxing and Muay Thai on and off for a decade. I went with a friend of mine to his boxing gym one time and worked with their head boxing coach... he literally told me everything I did was wrong. So I can imagine training both at the same time would be an issue... 

25 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 13442
Acidic -

It’s best if you incorporate it yourself the way you see fit. 

I think you should learn boxing first because the boxing stance isn’t always ideal when it comes to MMA imo. Learn to improve on the basics & then pick up Muay Thai.

Incorporate Boxing into your Muay Thai. I also think the Dutch style lacks as much as the Thai style lacks. The Dutch style uses a lot bigger gloves also from what I see. 

I definitely would have learned boxing first if I had a time machine, because I’d have better footwork, head movement and general defense. I took Shorin Ryu karate and learned how to move in and out, parry, use distance, etc... but I was too young too remember any of it. 

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31621
MasterofMartialArts -

I’ve taken kickboxing and Muay Thai on and off for a decade. I went with a friend of mine to his boxing gym one time and worked with their head boxing coach... he literally told me everything I did was wrong. So I can imagine training both at the same time would be an issue... 

I mean my strategy and philosophy is that boxing is the most important striking base, Muay Thai should compliment it. I’m fairly certain that the boxing coach did say that stuff, but again, most MT coaches don’t know what they’re talking about.

 

MT teaches nothing about footwork, cutting angles, defense, etc. Boxing does. 

25 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 13444
Uhtred Ragnarson -
MasterofMartialArts -

I’ve taken kickboxing and Muay Thai on and off for a decade. I went with a friend of mine to his boxing gym one time and worked with their head boxing coach... he literally told me everything I did was wrong. So I can imagine training both at the same time would be an issue... 

I mean my strategy and philosophy is that boxing is the most important striking base, Muay Thai should compliment it. I’m fairly certain that the boxing coach did say that stuff, but again, most MT coaches don’t know what they’re talking about.

 

MT teaches nothing about footwork, cutting angles, defense, etc. Boxing does. 

I would agree. Boxing is definitely the first thing that should be trained when it comes to fundamentals, as you mentioned. I agree that MT should compliment it, but it depends on the coaches... 

Like Darth said, what are your goals? Are you looking to compete in any of the arts, or just want to be a master striker because you love it? 

Lots of legitimate MMA gyms have programs that compliment each other, so if you’re looking to do both - it would be ideal to go to the same gym for both. It also depends on your skill level. If you are a beginner in both disciplines, it’s not a good idea to cross train simultaneously. 

The place I used to train was actually Western kickboxing but still incorporated the clinch, knees and elbows into the clinch like Thai boxing does. However there were some differences that better integrated it into MMA like stance and defensive philosophy. 

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31622
MasterofMartialArts -
Uhtred Ragnarson -
MasterofMartialArts -

I’ve taken kickboxing and Muay Thai on and off for a decade. I went with a friend of mine to his boxing gym one time and worked with their head boxing coach... he literally told me everything I did was wrong. So I can imagine training both at the same time would be an issue... 

I mean my strategy and philosophy is that boxing is the most important striking base, Muay Thai should compliment it. I’m fairly certain that the boxing coach did say that stuff, but again, most MT coaches don’t know what they’re talking about.

 

MT teaches nothing about footwork, cutting angles, defense, etc. Boxing does. 

I would agree. Boxing is definitely the first thing that should be trained when it comes to fundamentals, as you mentioned. I agree that MT should compliment it, but it depends on the coaches... 

Like Darth said, what are your goals? Are you looking to compete in any of the arts, or just want to be a master striker because you love it? 

Lots of legitimate MMA gyms have programs that compliment each other, so if you’re looking to do both - it would be ideal to go to the same gym for both. It also depends on your skill level. If you are a beginner in both disciplines, it’s not a good idea to cross train simultaneously. 

The place I used to train was actually Western kickboxing but still incorporated the clinch, knees and elbows into the clinch like Thai boxing does. However there were some differences that better integrated it into MMA like stance and defensive philosophy. 

Master striker because I love it. The same way I want to get my black belt. The myths of Renzo Gracie’s Boris resonate deeply with me haha. 

 

Def not a beginner, I’m a blue in BJJ and have done Muay Thai and kickboxing for some time. 

Im joining a boxing gym, and an MMA gym simultaneously. I just left my old BJJ gym, I felt it was too expensive for the instruction they provided. 

25 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 13445
Uhtred Ragnarson -
MasterofMartialArts -
Uhtred Ragnarson -
MasterofMartialArts -

I’ve taken kickboxing and Muay Thai on and off for a decade. I went with a friend of mine to his boxing gym one time and worked with their head boxing coach... he literally told me everything I did was wrong. So I can imagine training both at the same time would be an issue... 

I mean my strategy and philosophy is that boxing is the most important striking base, Muay Thai should compliment it. I’m fairly certain that the boxing coach did say that stuff, but again, most MT coaches don’t know what they’re talking about.

 

MT teaches nothing about footwork, cutting angles, defense, etc. Boxing does. 

I would agree. Boxing is definitely the first thing that should be trained when it comes to fundamentals, as you mentioned. I agree that MT should compliment it, but it depends on the coaches... 

Like Darth said, what are your goals? Are you looking to compete in any of the arts, or just want to be a master striker because you love it? 

Lots of legitimate MMA gyms have programs that compliment each other, so if you’re looking to do both - it would be ideal to go to the same gym for both. It also depends on your skill level. If you are a beginner in both disciplines, it’s not a good idea to cross train simultaneously. 

The place I used to train was actually Western kickboxing but still incorporated the clinch, knees and elbows into the clinch like Thai boxing does. However there were some differences that better integrated it into MMA like stance and defensive philosophy. 

Master striker because I love it. The same way I want to get my black belt. The myths of Renzo Gracie’s Boris resonate deeply with me haha. 

 

Def not a beginner, I’m a blue in BJJ and have done Muay Thai and kickboxing for some time. 

Im joining a boxing gym, and an MMA gym simultaneously. I just left my old BJJ gym, I felt it was too expensive for the instruction they provided. 

Hahahaha!

I've never trained BJJ a day in my life. If you have trained MT and KB for some time and feel you are as proficient as you want to be at the moment, then training boxing would be beneficial.

You could learn boxing, and use your MT training to stay in shape/stay technically sharp. The goal is not to overwork your mind by trying to learn too many techniques at once, and maximizing your potential skill level.

Just be careful not to overtrain, because 2-3 times a day multiple days a week can get old fast if you aren't training for a fight. 

25 days ago
12/29/06
Posts: 14295

Here's the thing, in my opinion. You first have to ask why the person is asking this. Is it just to be able to have a theoretical discussion on a forum? It depends on your opportunites, your talents, your location, training time, and if you are just doing it for a hobby or if you have talent to earn income doing MMA or contests.

Think of it this way. If you have some background in Tennis, and you took it in HS as an elective, and you took it in college and did well and you enjoy doing it, do you then start thinking, 'hey maybe I could be a tennis pro and earn money, let me go on a Tennis forum and ask what Tennis videos I should watch and which style of Tennis pro I should train under and which Tennis clubs have the best competition.

It sound kind of ridiculous. I don't know the route to becoming a Tennis Pro who makes a living, but it's not from trying to learn it by picking the right coach as a young adult, or asking the right questions on a forum

So many people, so many very talented people are already doing this. Same, now for martial arts and the path and the lifestyle is brutal, punishing and it leads to nagging injuries and broken bones even under the best conditions, and I think the people going this path are not asking questions of other amateurs. They've got opportunities and genetic gifts and talent and get swept into it.

There are other ways to become tough and durable and to be able to defend yourself without trying to cross train in two of the hardest disciplines in the combat arena thinking some 'magic' is going to make one special and great and being able to 'quickly envelop your peers'. That sounds like the wrong motivation.

Back in the day, yes we thought MA was 'magic' and a skinny college kid could fight the bullies on the football team by learning some special tricks, but people didn't know what they didn't know and that was no set of 'tricks' is going to turn you into a football player crusher. Football players are big, genetically advantaged and they bang into other big tough guys. That's aggression and experience. You're not going to be able to defeat your inner demons by punching under a waterfall and making big knuckles and then challening some big linebacker. It was a fantasy that one could understand back in the day when nobody really knew how to fight.

Find a thing that's fun for you and that you have talent for and go to classes if you want to and try to stay uninjured. In the remaning hours you may have to train be sure your cardio and anerobic systems are being built up and do some lifting to get strong. But put away the idea of 'enveloping your peers'. It's somewhat childish.

But, Good Luck don't quit, keep at it for a lifetime and try to stay healthy. If you get an MMA career then I hope you do great!

 

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31623
WidespreadPanic -

Here's the thing, in my opinion. You first have to ask why the person is asking this. Is it just to be able to have a theoretical discussion on a forum? It depends on your opportunites, your talents, your location, training time, and if you are just doing it for a hobby or if you have talent to earn income doing MMA or contests.

Think of it this way. If you have some background in Tennis, and you took it in HS as an elective, and you took it in college and did well and you enjoy doing it, do you then start thinking, 'hey maybe I could be a tennis pro and earn money, let me go on a Tennis forum and ask what Tennis videos I should watch and which style of Tennis pro I should train under and which Tennis clubs have the best competition.

It sound kind of ridiculous. I don't know the route to becoming a Tennis Pro who makes a living, but it's not from trying to learn it by picking the right coach as a young adult, or asking the right questions on a forum

So many people, so many very talented people are already doing this. Same, now for martial arts and the path and the lifestyle is brutal, punishing and it leads to nagging injuries and broken bones even under the best conditions, and I think the people going this path are not asking questions of other amateurs. They've got opportunities and genetic gifts and talent and get swept into it.

There are other ways to become tough and durable and to be able to defend yourself without trying to cross train in two of the hardest disciplines in the combat arena thinking some 'magic' is going to make one special and great and being able to 'quickly envelop your peers'. That sounds like the wrong motivation.

Back in the day, yes we thought MA was 'magic' and a skinny college kid could fight the bullies on the football team by learning some special tricks, but people didn't know what they didn't know and that was no set of 'tricks' is going to turn you into a football player crusher. Football players are big, genetically advantaged and they bang into other big tough guys. That's aggression and experience. You're not going to be able to defeat your inner demons by punching under a waterfall and making big knuckles and then challening some big linebacker. It was a fantasy that one could understand back in the day when nobody really knew how to fight.

Find a thing that's fun for you and that you have talent for and go to classes if you want to and try to stay uninjured. In the remaning hours you may have to train be sure your cardio and anerobic systems are being built up and do some lifting to get strong. But put away the idea of 'enveloping your peers'. It's somewhat childish.

But, Good Luck don't quit, keep at it for a lifetime and try to stay healthy. If you get an MMA career then I hope you do great!

 

Good post. And yeah keep in mind posting on an iPhone doesn’t exactly reflect what I’m thinking the best haha. Excuse the childish bs. No insecurities, just love the sport of Muay Thai and grappling as well.

 

Speaking of lifting programs, with the workload I’m already under, what would you suggest I do? Should I focus on a two day split? I was using tactical barbell’s gladiator program for a while, then a few SOF prep programs, but I almost always exhausted myself totally...and that bled into my performance in the gym. 

25 days ago
1/12/05
Posts: 62233

From what I've seen/experienced, boxing training translates better to MT than MT does to boxing. Ideally, someone would have access to a solid boxing gym and good coaching, then put in a solid year there before they'd even think about MT or kickboxing. 

I would pick one and stick with that. I wouldn't focus too much on lifting or S&C, just do the drills, get your pads and bag work in and maybe some old school calestenics. Getting ring fit comes with time and doing too much complementary work beyond that can burn you out. You can add extras after your Boxing/MT conditioning is up to scratch. 

Edited: 25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31624
Bobby Lupo -

From what I've seen/experienced, boxing training translates better to MT than MT does to boxing. Ideally, someone would have access to a solid boxing gym and good coaching, then put in a solid year there before they'd even think about MT or kickboxing. 

I would pick one and stick with that. I wouldn't focus too much on lifting or S&C, just do the drills, get your pads and bag work in and maybe some old school calestenics. Getting ring fit comes with time and doing too much complementary work beyond that can burn you out. You can add extras after your Boxing/MT conditioning is up to scratch. 

Just playing devils advocate here, but why solely focus on boxing first hand?

 

edit: and should they try becoming a competent boxer first? Treating it like a sport, or just put time in on the technical side solely for Muay Thai in the long run. Ie not much sparring at all. I have my own theory on this, interested in what yours is.

25 days ago
10/26/05
Posts: 3904

I guess maybe if you're a fighter. But fuck that...i ain't trying to get off the couch and crosstrain shit. 

25 days ago
1/16/12
Posts: 6006
Uhtred Ragnarson -
Acidic -

It’s best if you incorporate it yourself the way you see fit. 

I think you should learn boxing first because the boxing stance isn’t always ideal when it comes to MMA imo. Learn to improve on the basics & then pick up Muay Thai.

Incorporate Boxing into your Muay Thai. I also think the Dutch style lacks as much as the Thai style lacks. The Dutch style uses a lot bigger gloves also from what I see. 

I mean you can always insist on using a squared stance. Not every boxer fights from a bladed stance, almost every coach has their own approach. 

 

Look at GGG and Tyson for example, low squared up stance to generate max power.

Every boxing gym or boxing coach who taught me started off with footwork & my god didn’t allow the square stance. I think they didn’t really like MMA

Even then it’s up to you or an MMA striking coach to put together what’s best for your body & how to incorporate boxing into your thai striking & kickboxing 

25 days ago
7/27/11
Posts: 31626
Acidic -
Uhtred Ragnarson -
Acidic -

It’s best if you incorporate it yourself the way you see fit. 

I think you should learn boxing first because the boxing stance isn’t always ideal when it comes to MMA imo. Learn to improve on the basics & then pick up Muay Thai.

Incorporate Boxing into your Muay Thai. I also think the Dutch style lacks as much as the Thai style lacks. The Dutch style uses a lot bigger gloves also from what I see. 

I mean you can always insist on using a squared stance. Not every boxer fights from a bladed stance, almost every coach has their own approach. 

 

Look at GGG and Tyson for example, low squared up stance to generate max power.

Every boxing gym or boxing coach who taught me started off with footwork & my god didn’t allow the square stance. I think they didn’t really like MMA

Even then it’s up to you or an MMA striking coach to put together what’s best for your body & how to incorporate boxing into your thai striking & kickboxing 

Eh in all fairness, I’m started to see the benefits of a squared stance less and less as time goes on. 

 

I think the days of “bLadEd StAnceS dOnT woRk In ReAl LifE” are long gone. FFS, arguably the greatest striker MMA has ever seen fought out of the most bladed stance possible. 

24 days ago
5/11/05
Posts: 3279

I trained under Raul Llopis who is a 9x world champion in Muay Thai and proffessional boxer. He told me that what we were learning was Cuban Muay Thai. We worked out in a regular pro boxing gym training in Muay Thai and boxing simultaneously.

Learn them both. Become a beast in both so your transitions flow seamlessly between techniques.