UnderGround Forums Solutions to judging... Score by mins? Half point?

9 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9203

When it comes to judging MMA... 

Have you ever tried to judge rounds by the minute?  For example, whoever wins over 2.5 minutes of each round wins that round.   Basically as the fight is taking place I’ll mark a point after 1 minute, then the same after 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th minutes.  Unless there is a devastating knockdown or submission attempt, I found this way is easy to keep track of control time.  And it helps to not be biased by the last half of the round.  

 

 

 

Also... I wanted to bring up the Half point system.  I’m not a fan because the only time I’ve seen it used was up in Canada at a MFC show, and it resulted in another CONTROVERSIAL 5 round decision between RYAN JIMMO vs Thierry Soukoudjou.  Ryan Jimmo got the decision but I remember many people felt they got it wrong, even with the half point system in place. 

 

What are some solutions?  I really don’t think the amount of judges matter.  I used to think that was the solution, but if there were 5 or 7 judges we still have the same problems. Imo. 

 

Thoughts?  What would you change

9 days ago
10/3/16
Posts: 6248

A 4th robot judge is installed.

9 days ago
8/18/13
Posts: 10351

I score rounds pretty much as you’ve described 

9 days ago
10/31/07
Posts: 6812

15 minute round, tko/ko/sub only. If it goes the full 15 minutes it’s a draw. 

9 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9210
Dreville79 -

I score rounds pretty much as you’ve described 

I do think it’s hard to judge fights live.   It completely ruins my ability to enjoy the fight so I usually go back and judge on replay.  

I think we need a judge that strictly watches the TV.  I’ve sat cageside for fights and it’s so easy to miss things.  TV angles really are the best view

9 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9211
NineFightFour -

15 minute round, tko/ko/sub only. If it goes the full 15 minutes it’s a draw. 

I actually like that idea.  I like how they use it in grappling.  I’d maybe change it to pride rules 10 min first round, 5 minute overtime.  No finish = draw like you said.   That would be really interesting.  

9 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9212
MarcusAurelioFan -

A 4th robot judge is installed.

lol 

9 days ago
2/9/09
Posts: 12958

I think it should be judged as a whole. Also more judges, maybe separated from one another 

9 days ago
3/10/11
Posts: 174
NineFightFour -

15 minute round, tko/ko/sub only. If it goes the full 15 minutes it’s a draw. 

That is a great idea. I remember GSP saying something similar in an interview.

Judging rounds minute by minute is a good idea.

9 days ago
1/29/20
Posts: 27

First this is going to sound crazy but there needs to be more Draws. When two guys lay it on the line and it is a hell of a fight, its kind of messed up to give it to one guy over the other. They need to widen the "draw" gap a bit. They should weight the significant strikes counter that we get at the end of the fight equal to one or two of the judges. Something like that. The data is great to add but will need a human element as well since we can tell when someone is really rocked or presses the action. 

9 days ago
10/31/07
Posts: 6815
Bend The Knee -

I think it should be judged as a whole. Also more judges, maybe separated from one another 

Pride supposedly judged the fight on “if it kept going who would of won” so out pointing a guy for 10 minutes didn’t matter if you got your ass kicked the last 2 minutes and were essentially saved by the bell.

i would love a 10 minute first round and a 5 minute second but if it’s judged the same as the 3 5 minute rounds it’ll still be flawed. Judging will always be subjective that’s why I honestly think if it does the distance it’s a draw, but if there were longer rounds I think there would be more finishes. Guys couldn’t win via decisions so they would actually have to try to finish. I think it’s a win win. And if 2 dudes go to wR and no one is finished a drAw doesn’t hurt their brand. Why should someone get an L on their record if they both fucked each other up for 15 minutes. 

8 days ago
3/3/09
Posts: 29
NineFightFour -
Bend The Knee -

I think it should be judged as a whole. Also more judges, maybe separated from one another 

Pride supposedly judged the fight on “if it kept going who would of won” so out pointing a guy for 10 minutes didn’t matter if you got your ass kicked the last 2 minutes and were essentially saved by the bell.

i would love a 10 minute first round and a 5 minute second but if it’s judged the same as the 3 5 minute rounds it’ll still be flawed. Judging will always be subjective that’s why I honestly think if it does the distance it’s a draw, but if there were longer rounds I think there would be more finishes. Guys couldn’t win via decisions so they would actually have to try to finish. I think it’s a win win. And if 2 dudes go to wR and no one is finished a drAw doesn’t hurt their brand. Why should someone get an L on their record if they both fucked each other up for 15 minutes. 

I like your thinking but what about the reverse?  If one guy beats the other bell to bell but doesn't get a finish is a draw justified?

8 days ago
10/31/07
Posts: 6817
magneticplastic -
NineFightFour -
Bend The Knee -

I think it should be judged as a whole. Also more judges, maybe separated from one another 

Pride supposedly judged the fight on “if it kept going who would of won” so out pointing a guy for 10 minutes didn’t matter if you got your ass kicked the last 2 minutes and were essentially saved by the bell.

i would love a 10 minute first round and a 5 minute second but if it’s judged the same as the 3 5 minute rounds it’ll still be flawed. Judging will always be subjective that’s why I honestly think if it does the distance it’s a draw, but if there were longer rounds I think there would be more finishes. Guys couldn’t win via decisions so they would actually have to try to finish. I think it’s a win win. And if 2 dudes go to wR and no one is finished a drAw doesn’t hurt their brand. Why should someone get an L on their record if they both fucked each other up for 15 minutes. 

I like your thinking but what about the reverse?  If one guy beats the other bell to bell but doesn't get a finish is a draw justified?

It’s the lesser of two evils. Or we could make it to where in order to win a round it needs to be a “10-8” round. Any fight that goes to split decision should just be a draw. If there isn’t an absolute 100% clear winner it should be a draw

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 15933

IMO, adding scoring intervals would magnify the problem, not solve it. Someone wins a close, uneventful 4 minutes and then almost gets finished in the 5th minute shouldn't win the found. If you score by the minute, they have won 4-1.

I think that a couple of options could help:

(1) A head judge not responsible for individual fights could order a reconsideration of controversial decisions. In those rare cases--decided in the moment, before the decision is read--they could have the commission have 3 judges review the fight later and if 3/3 agree that it should be reversed, it's reversed.

(2) More 10-10 and 10-8 rounds. This has been going around for a while and I agree with it wholeheartedly. It'd be the easiest intervention.

(3) Accountability and professional development systems for judges.

(4) Judges have an option at the end of the fight, "if the person ahead on your score card is not the person who you felt, won the fight when judged as a whole, you can award the other fighter an additional point."

8 days ago
6/20/11
Posts: 32099

The scoring system is fine, the way it is implemented is not.

They should be more willing to do a 10-10

10-9 round clearly won.

10-8 dominant round with real scoring, not just positional dominance

10-7 very dominant, should be values greater than just edging out 2 other rounds.

 

8 days ago
5/18/18
Posts: 1774

How about keeping the 10 point must except just have scoring in the final round only. You can still KO, sub or have a referee stoppage in any of the first 2 or 4 rounds (depending on if it’s a 3 or 5 rounder) but the final round is the only one scored.  
This makes it like a real fight. It rewards fighters who can survive the early rounds and come on strong at the end. 
And although most fighters would attempt a KO or sub at any time, this would guarantee some wicked final rounds.  
It would also be harder to wrestlefuck someone. It’s a lot harder to do that in the final round than it is earlier based on fatigue alone.  
I think that fights would be easier to score and more entertaining 

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 15935
shaqitup - 

The scoring system is fine, the way it is implemented is not.

They should be more willing to do a 10-10

10-9 round clearly won.

10-8 dominant round with real scoring, not just positional dominance

10-7 very dominant, should be values greater than just edging out 2 other rounds.

 


Unfortunately, the current criteria discourages 10-10 rounds. That's not a problem with the judges. It requires a simple change in criteria. "If there is not a clear winner, a round should be scored 10-10."

8 days ago
3/2/12
Posts: 2962

What about decimal points, so someone could have a 9.1 or 9.2 round, or scoring rounds out of 100 instead of 10?

8 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 23749

By the minute would be awful, .5 pts do make sense tho.

 

I'm not sure how the judges award 10-8 rnds at this point, but really judges should just be entering data and based on that data the system determines what the score of the round is. Discretion should be removed as much as possible.

8 days ago
3/10/11
Posts: 175

I want to jump in and say the half point system just makes judges jobs harder because how do I score a 8.5 round? What is the difference between my 8.5 round and another judges? What justifies a 9.5 round? It would have to be clearly defined in the rule book and that is not easy to define.

10-10 = I have never given a 10-10 and never seen one, by the rules I have read, you should always be able to pick a winner of the round. Based on the current rules. But I believe technically its possible as an option.

10-9 = One fighter won the round by a small to medium margin

10-8 = One fighter dominated the fight from bell to bell with his opponent rarely putting up defense. Possibly almost finishing the fight

10-7 = You the judge believe that the fight should have been stopped. Also this can't be from a round where one guy was winning then the winning fighter gets knocked down at the end of the fight and gets saved by the bell. It would need to be clear domination all round AND you believe the ref should have stopped it.

At the end of a 3 round fight you could have 10-9.5 10-9.5 and 9-10 draw. 29- 29.

Another fight could be 10-8.5 9-10 and 9.5-10 DRAW? 29-29.

I can see a lot more issues with judges trying to explain a 8.5-10 round. And a lot more issues with guys being robbed by shit judging.

Giving out more 10-10 draws would make judges lives a little more difficult because it adds in another possible score that they have to think about. Right now most MMA judges have never once given a 10-10 round, I personally haven't. But I think I like it. Like someone said they would have to put it into the rule book that if you can't pick a clear winner then it should be 10-10.

I personally have never once scored a round a 10-7, I couldn't name a 10-7 round for you off the top of my head.

8 days ago
3/22/13
Posts: 1670

The answer is simple...MMA judges. Not boxing judges moonlighting for some extra money, and make the wages worth it so they arent easily bought.

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 15938
SHOGUN250 - 

What about decimal points, so someone could have a 9.1 or 9.2 round, or scoring rounds out of 100 instead of 10?


I'm not sure if this was serious, but it raises a point worth discussing: I've had conversations with teachers who have dug deep into grading practices. There is a general consensus that more options leads to more problems. That is, a 1-5 or 1-7 grading system tends to be more fair and accurate than a 1-100 system.

MMA judges don't need more options as much as they need more leniency to score rounds a draw.

8 days ago
3/13/15
Posts: 236

Judge accountability. I think they should be part of the post fight press conference. 

8 days ago
5/30/09
Posts: 2217
MarcusAurelioFan -

A 4th robot judge is installed.

Lol

8 days ago
3/10/11
Posts: 177
PoundFoolish -
MarcusAurelioFan -

A 4th robot judge is installed.

Lol

A fourth robot judge is not a bad idea...

If the 'robot judge' was just an amalgamation of statistics. You could have a strike count, takedown count, knockdown count, sub attempt count. All that sort of stuff. And then give a score based on that.

I am like 60% serious.