UnderGround Forums Solutions to judging... Score by mins? Half point?

7 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9246
Smsgoat -

First this is going to sound crazy but there needs to be more Draws. When two guys lay it on the line and it is a hell of a fight, its kind of messed up to give it to one guy over the other. They need to widen the "draw" gap a bit. They should weight the significant strikes counter that we get at the end of the fight equal to one or two of the judges. Something like that. The data is great to add but will need a human element as well since we can tell when someone is really rocked or presses the action. 

Completely agree.  I’ve heard a journalist say “Athletic commissions do not want more draws”.  Not sure if there’s any truth to that.  I think it was Luke Thomas who said that.  

7 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9247
NineFightFour -
magneticplastic -
NineFightFour -
Bend The Knee -

I think it should be judged as a whole. Also more judges, maybe separated from one another 

Pride supposedly judged the fight on “if it kept going who would of won” so out pointing a guy for 10 minutes didn’t matter if you got your ass kicked the last 2 minutes and were essentially saved by the bell.

i would love a 10 minute first round and a 5 minute second but if it’s judged the same as the 3 5 minute rounds it’ll still be flawed. Judging will always be subjective that’s why I honestly think if it does the distance it’s a draw, but if there were longer rounds I think there would be more finishes. Guys couldn’t win via decisions so they would actually have to try to finish. I think it’s a win win. And if 2 dudes go to wR and no one is finished a drAw doesn’t hurt their brand. Why should someone get an L on their record if they both fucked each other up for 15 minutes. 

I like your thinking but what about the reverse?  If one guy beats the other bell to bell but doesn't get a finish is a draw justified?

It’s the lesser of two evils. Or we could make it to where in order to win a round it needs to be a “10-8” round. Any fight that goes to split decision should just be a draw. If there isn’t an absolute 100% clear winner it should be a draw

Great posts.  I’d love to see a feeder league try something new, if they can get it approved by an athletic commission. 

7 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9248
SportScience -

I want to jump in and say the half point system just makes judges jobs harder because how do I score a 8.5 round? What is the difference between my 8.5 round and another judges? What justifies a 9.5 round? It would have to be clearly defined in the rule book and that is not easy to define.

10-10 = I have never given a 10-10 and never seen one, by the rules I have read, you should always be able to pick a winner of the round. Based on the current rules. But I believe technically its possible as an option.

10-9 = One fighter won the round by a small to medium margin

10-8 = One fighter dominated the fight from bell to bell with his opponent rarely putting up defense. Possibly almost finishing the fight

10-7 = You the judge believe that the fight should have been stopped. Also this can't be from a round where one guy was winning then the winning fighter gets knocked down at the end of the fight and gets saved by the bell. It would need to be clear domination all round AND you believe the ref should have stopped it.

At the end of a 3 round fight you could have 10-9.5 10-9.5 and 9-10 draw. 29- 29.

Another fight could be 10-8.5 9-10 and 9.5-10 DRAW? 29-29.

I can see a lot more issues with judges trying to explain a 8.5-10 round. And a lot more issues with guys being robbed by shit judging.

Giving out more 10-10 draws would make judges lives a little more difficult because it adds in another possible score that they have to think about. Right now most MMA judges have never once given a 10-10 round, I personally haven't. But I think I like it. Like someone said they would have to put it into the rule book that if you can't pick a clear winner then it should be 10-10.

I personally have never once scored a round a 10-7, I couldn't name a 10-7 round for you off the top of my head.

Great points, I am not a believer in the half point system.  

Has there ever been a 10-7 score? 

This reminds me of when I was at UFC 125 event “Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard” and when the decision was made a draw, a lot of fans started arguing scores around me.  One guy told me “you can’t score less than 10-8, there’s no such thing as a 10-7”.  I was telling him I believe I had actually seen a 10-7 before but couldn’t remember when.  I’ve actually never looked into it since then.  

7 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9249
BalloonBollicks -

The answer is simple...MMA judges. Not boxing judges moonlighting for some extra money, and make the wages worth it so they arent easily bought.

I don’t think that’s the solution because we have judges that have been following and judging MMA for like 2 decades, and we still have issues.  

What actually made me create this thread was the Till vs Whitaker and Noguiera vs Shogun fights.  The media literally had Lil Nog and Shogun split like 50/50.  

And when I see scores from other fighters on social media, they can be polar opposite as other fighters.  

7 days ago
3/23/06
Posts: 9250
wiggum -

IMO, adding scoring intervals would magnify the problem, not solve it. Someone wins a close, uneventful 4 minutes and then almost gets finished in the 5th minute shouldn't win the found. If you score by the minute, they have won 4-1.

I think that a couple of options could help:

(1) A head judge not responsible for individual fights could order a reconsideration of controversial decisions. In those rare cases--decided in the moment, before the decision is read--they could have the commission have 3 judges review the fight later and if 3/3 agree that it should be reversed, it's reversed.

(2) More 10-10 and 10-8 rounds. This has been going around for a while and I agree with it wholeheartedly. It'd be the easiest intervention.

(3) Accountability and professional development systems for judges.

(4) Judges have an option at the end of the fight, "if the person ahead on your score card is not the person who you felt, won the fight when judged as a whole, you can award the other fighter an additional point."

Quoting because it’s a damn good post!  

7 days ago
4/4/17
Posts: 18
CMFanforlife -

How about keeping the 10 point must except just have scoring in the final round only. You can still KO, sub or have a referee stoppage in any of the first 2 or 4 rounds (depending on if it’s a 3 or 5 rounder) but the final round is the only one scored.  
This makes it like a real fight. It rewards fighters who can survive the early rounds and come on strong at the end. 
And although most fighters would attempt a KO or sub at any time, this would guarantee some wicked final rounds.  
It would also be harder to wrestlefuck someone. It’s a lot harder to do that in the final round than it is earlier based on fatigue alone.  
I think that fights would be easier to score and more entertaining 

That right there would be a game changer. I'd fully embrace that idea. Many fights look tied going into the last round anyway, even if the scores dont reflect that. I think that would be an excellent solution

Edited: 7 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 15941

^^I disagree. It would allow someone to get the shit beat out of them for two rounds and then lose via point fighting in the third.

6 days ago
2/6/11
Posts: 410
knockoutfighter -

When it comes to judging MMA... 

Have you ever tried to judge rounds by the minute?  For example, whoever wins over 2.5 minutes of each round wins that round.   Basically as the fight is taking place I’ll mark a point after 1 minute, then the same after 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th minutes.  Unless there is a devastating knockdown or submission attempt, I found this way is easy to keep track of control time.  And it helps to not be biased by the last half of the round.  

 

 

 

Also... I wanted to bring up the Half point system.  I’m not a fan because the only time I’ve seen it used was up in Canada at a MFC show, and it resulted in another CONTROVERSIAL 5 round decision between RYAN JIMMO vs Thierry Soukoudjou.  Ryan Jimmo got the decision but I remember many people felt they got it wrong, even with the half point system in place. 

 

What are some solutions?  I really don’t think the amount of judges matter.  I used to think that was the solution, but if there were 5 or 7 judges we still have the same problems. Imo. 

 

Thoughts?  What would you change

Then you might as well have 2.5 min rounds lol I like the idea of having one long round and if there isnt a finish a over time round that desides a winner but what will happen is you'll have a boring first round so it will get to a 2nd 

6 days ago
8/22/02
Posts: 3930

I think they should announce scores before the 3rd and 5th rounds. It may motivate fighters if they know the fight is tied going into those rounds. But to prevent stalling I'd also implement a Pride type warning system and point deductions. 

6 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 3994

Easy. Have competent judges who pick the actual winner of the fight as the winner. 

6 days ago
8/18/13
Posts: 10359
knockoutfighter -
SportScience -

I want to jump in and say the half point system just makes judges jobs harder because how do I score a 8.5 round? What is the difference between my 8.5 round and another judges? What justifies a 9.5 round? It would have to be clearly defined in the rule book and that is not easy to define.

10-10 = I have never given a 10-10 and never seen one, by the rules I have read, you should always be able to pick a winner of the round. Based on the current rules. But I believe technically its possible as an option.

10-9 = One fighter won the round by a small to medium margin

10-8 = One fighter dominated the fight from bell to bell with his opponent rarely putting up defense. Possibly almost finishing the fight

10-7 = You the judge believe that the fight should have been stopped. Also this can't be from a round where one guy was winning then the winning fighter gets knocked down at the end of the fight and gets saved by the bell. It would need to be clear domination all round AND you believe the ref should have stopped it.

At the end of a 3 round fight you could have 10-9.5 10-9.5 and 9-10 draw. 29- 29.

Another fight could be 10-8.5 9-10 and 9.5-10 DRAW? 29-29.

I can see a lot more issues with judges trying to explain a 8.5-10 round. And a lot more issues with guys being robbed by shit judging.

Giving out more 10-10 draws would make judges lives a little more difficult because it adds in another possible score that they have to think about. Right now most MMA judges have never once given a 10-10 round, I personally haven't. But I think I like it. Like someone said they would have to put it into the rule book that if you can't pick a clear winner then it should be 10-10.

I personally have never once scored a round a 10-7, I couldn't name a 10-7 round for you off the top of my head.

Great points, I am not a believer in the half point system.  

Has there ever been a 10-7 score? 

This reminds me of when I was at UFC 125 event “Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard” and when the decision was made a draw, a lot of fans started arguing scores around me.  One guy told me “you can’t score less than 10-8, there’s no such thing as a 10-7”.  I was telling him I believe I had actually seen a 10-7 before but couldn’t remember when.  I’ve actually never looked into it since then.  

Probably completely wrong but it’s in my head Maia might have scored a 10-7 from one judge in the last few years. Maybe against Gunnar

6 days ago
4/21/12
Posts: 10064
DaddyRich -

I think they should announce scores before the 3rd and 5th rounds. It may motivate fighters if they know the fight is tied going into those rounds. But to prevent stalling I'd also implement a Pride type warning system and point deductions. 

Invicta already does something like this for their fights in Kansas. After each round they show both corners the judges' scores, and they show the scores on the broadcast as well. Everyone - fighters, fans, corners - know where the fight stands going into the final round.

When a fighter or his corner knows he's down 2-0 on the cards going into the final round, he'd have to be silly to think point fighting is going to win the fight, especially when a 10-8 will only get him a draw. 

6 days ago
4/21/12
Posts: 10065
knockoutfighter -
SportScience -

I want to jump in and say the half point system just makes judges jobs harder because how do I score a 8.5 round? What is the difference between my 8.5 round and another judges? What justifies a 9.5 round? It would have to be clearly defined in the rule book and that is not easy to define.

10-10 = I have never given a 10-10 and never seen one, by the rules I have read, you should always be able to pick a winner of the round. Based on the current rules. But I believe technically its possible as an option.

10-9 = One fighter won the round by a small to medium margin

10-8 = One fighter dominated the fight from bell to bell with his opponent rarely putting up defense. Possibly almost finishing the fight

10-7 = You the judge believe that the fight should have been stopped. Also this can't be from a round where one guy was winning then the winning fighter gets knocked down at the end of the fight and gets saved by the bell. It would need to be clear domination all round AND you believe the ref should have stopped it.

At the end of a 3 round fight you could have 10-9.5 10-9.5 and 9-10 draw. 29- 29.

Another fight could be 10-8.5 9-10 and 9.5-10 DRAW? 29-29.

I can see a lot more issues with judges trying to explain a 8.5-10 round. And a lot more issues with guys being robbed by shit judging.

Giving out more 10-10 draws would make judges lives a little more difficult because it adds in another possible score that they have to think about. Right now most MMA judges have never once given a 10-10 round, I personally haven't. But I think I like it. Like someone said they would have to put it into the rule book that if you can't pick a clear winner then it should be 10-10.

I personally have never once scored a round a 10-7, I couldn't name a 10-7 round for you off the top of my head.

Great points, I am not a believer in the half point system.  

Has there ever been a 10-7 score? 

This reminds me of when I was at UFC 125 event “Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard” and when the decision was made a draw, a lot of fans started arguing scores around me.  One guy told me “you can’t score less than 10-8, there’s no such thing as a 10-7”.  I was telling him I believe I had actually seen a 10-7 before but couldn’t remember when.  I’ve actually never looked into it since then.  

"Has there ever been a 10-7 score? "

One judge gave Josh Emmett a 10-7 against Felipe Arantes in a 2017 UFC fight. The judge was Paul Sutherland. The scores were 30-26 X 2 and 30-25.

Also, supposedly (not sure of this) Marcos Rosales gave Forrest Petz a 10-7 against Sam Morgan in a 2006 UFC fight. He scored the fight 30-23. 

 

6 days ago
2/25/15
Posts: 1586
The problem isn't the scoring system, the problem is the competence of the judges. Sometimes there is a round which is clearly won by 1 fighter, but judges still gives the round to the other fighter. No matter what kind of gymnastic you do, it doesn't fix incompetence or corruption.
As a general rule, whenever there is a controversy for a decision, almost all the MMA community agree with each others that the judges were terrible.
Call me insane, but i'd trust someone like Dana's decision over judges's decisions any time of the day.
Or have the judges be choosen by the UFC, and fired if they suck.
6 days ago
4/21/12
Posts: 10066
floofy - The problem isn't the scoring system, the problem is the competence of the judges. Sometimes there is a round which is clearly won by 1 fighter, but judges still gives the round to the other fighter. No matter what kind of gymnastic you do, it doesn't fix incompetence or corruption.
As a general rule, whenever there is a controversy for a decision, almost all the MMA community agree with each others that the judges were terrible.
Call me insane, but i'd trust someone like Dana's decision over judges's decisions any time of the day.
Or have the judges be choosen by the UFC, and fired if they suck.

Tonight's UFC card features Gerald Meerschaert, who was 2019's most fucked-over fighter, according to mmadecisions.com's survey of fights where the fans and media seriously disagreed with the judges. He had the 7th and 11th most disputed decisions.

  • In his split decision loss to Eryk Anders, only 14% of fans and media agreed with the 2 judges who gave it to Anders.
  • In his split decision loss to Kevin Holland, only 3 of 17 MMA media members agreed with the decision and 65% of fans submitting scorecards felt Meerschaert had won.
6 days ago
11/19/19
Posts: 4122

I score boxing in 3 separate minutes, but that isn't the end all. Someone can definitely win the round by only winning 1/3rd of it.

 

In MMA, the scoring of a takedown seems to be a huge problem. It should not equate half a round of work. A lot of times, guys get right back up, or the top fighter is stuck in guard and not able to accomplish anything.

 

Also, you need to remove the fact that a lot of these judges don't know what they are doing, and some are on the take.

6 days ago
11/19/19
Posts: 4123

Let former fighters become judges.

6 days ago
8/23/12
Posts: 332

What about live scoring that’s displayed on the screens hanging in the arenas each round so the fighters can see it for themselves. 

6 days ago
3/10/11
Posts: 178
ScreenName22 -

Let former fighters become judges.

Its super easy to become a judge. The pay is not great, but you get free food and like $200 for the night.

Most states and countries do not require you to do a course, but it helps. There are a bunch or courses, Herb Dean has a good one, costs around $2000.