UnderGround Forums Tai chi no can defend ANYTHING???

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 64387
FCTV808 - 

You know interestingly enough I was considering joining one of the morning tai chi groups in the park next to my hotel in shanghai before this whole covid disaster.   Mostly for the chics.  Yeah they’re all grandmas, but I’ve always been attractive to really old Asian ladies.   How does that work?  Well, that generation all cook and clean, and besides cobweb Nani, they normally have a daughter or granddaughter that they want tamed and seem to think the younger dude that does tai chi with them is just the fella.

And to keep this thread relevant, I’m old enough to have been dramatically impacted by black belt theater and actually studied wing Chun for a few years as a youngster and although it cost me humiliation and a few black eyes against my rivals that boxed here in Hawaii, the “worthless” horse stances we learned back then seem to work extremely well against Dela riva and berimbolo guards among others if you strengthen the tool and apply the theory.  No shit

 

 


I have orange juice coming out my nose. it was worth it :-)

Edited: 12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12712
DagwoodDogwoggle -

I really feel like I need to write a book on this topic.
Tai Chi Chuan (Grand Ultimate Fist) is the system that evolved into Schuai Chiao and San Da.  It's almost entirely throws and grappling.  It is a very effective fighting system if taught and practiced martially.

The problem with Eastern Martial Arts is two fold.

1) They were created in a time when tyranny made it illegal to learn to fist fight and use weapons just as today tyrannies will not allow citizens to learn to ues or carry firearms.  Therefore, fighting and grappling movements were exaggerated, hands were opened, and ideas that would never work together in a real fight were combined in forms. 

Example - the Long Fist Posture - up on one leg, arm extended.  I happen to know the arm motion is a very exaggerated combination that could be clear, jab, cross or jab, cross, liver shot or etc.  But it you'd never do it in a real fight with these exaggerated arm motions and certainly not launching up onto one leg.  But the exaggerated arm motion teaches the principle that, when changed into 3 quick arm movements, can be a number of combinations.  The one legged thing?  May as well train how well you can move onto one leg and stay rooted.  It worked for me if a sparring partner managed to grap a kick or get a single leg.  I was very hard to take down.

2)  The second part of the problem - and this is huge - is the way the Asian Teachers thought and taught.

I was lucky to have a teacher show me a movement like the one I just described, and then break it down for me a couple different ways Western He encouraged me to practice the way for art, and the practical way to learn to fight.  When 2 man drilling or sparring, he told us don't try it the way because it won't work.  Well, Traditional Eastern Teachers believed that Techer Do, Student Repeat. 

The Eastern Teachers rarely taught practical apllications.  It was the student's job to figure it out.  If the student couldn't figure it out, then the Teacher just assumed the student was a bad one.  Well this shit went on in the name of tradition for so long students who eventually branched off and became teachers ... didn't know WTF the actual applications were.

AND THAT, MY FRIENDS, IS WHY TAI CHI CHUAN AND OTHER TMS'S SEEM INEFFECTIVE.

If taught correctly, drilled correctly with partners, and preasure tested, TMAs work.  I KNOW Northern Long Fist and Tai Chi worked for me.  I fought 3 cage fights in the year 2000 - 2001, and I've had two "street fights".  I used the Chinese arts in every one - and this without relying on my State Champion ship in wrestling.

So to wrap this up - TMAs can work.  There is only one real flaw in TMAs that is the TMA's fault - it's a slower way to learn.  You learn stances and traditional drills and forms.  Then you learn realistic drills and applications.  Then you drill and spar.  In MMA you skip the tradition and culture and go straight to realistic drilling.  Therefore, if your only goal is to learrn to fight, then Kung-Fu, Tai Chi, etc is not for you.  If you want a more cultural experience, TMAs can be great for that AND learning to fight.  You just need and instructor who knows how to translate the yoga/dance like motions into practical skills.

I recommend Ramsey Dewey Q&A with The Coach.  He has fought a real Tai Chi Master and said it was amazing.  He uses a few moves from Tai Chi.  He also says for the most part, Kung-Fu is useless but he is always open minded when a new trainee comes in and does something to him in sparring that works.  Ramsey will say, Where'd you learn that?," and some times get an aanswer like, "Ba'Qua," or, "Hsing I."

Kind of hard for tai chi to evolve into chewy cow when the cow predates it. I’d hold up on the book, confusedcius 

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 63714

I Saw a fight between 2 tai chi masters and it like like a bitch slap fest

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12714

the two most dangerous men in southern china, tai chi vs white crane from 1954

 

12 days ago
6/29/02
Posts: 5934
Tmaguru -
DagwoodDogwoggle -

I really feel like I need to write a book on this topic.
Tai Chi Chuan (Grand Ultimate Fist) is the system that evolved into Schuai Chiao and San Da.  It's almost entirely throws and grappling.  It is a very effective fighting system if taught and practiced martially.

The problem with Eastern Martial Arts is two fold.

1) They were created in a time when tyranny made it illegal to learn to fist fight and use weapons just as today tyrannies will not allow citizens to learn to ues or carry firearms.  Therefore, fighting and grappling movements were exaggerated, hands were opened, and ideas that would never work together in a real fight were combined in forms. 

Example - the Long Fist Posture - up on one leg, arm extended.  I happen to know the arm motion is a very exaggerated combination that could be clear, jab, cross or jab, cross, liver shot or etc.  But it you'd never do it in a real fight with these exaggerated arm motions and certainly not launching up onto one leg.  But the exaggerated arm motion teaches the principle that, when changed into 3 quick arm movements, can be a number of combinations.  The one legged thing?  May as well train how well you can move onto one leg and stay rooted.  It worked for me if a sparring partner managed to grap a kick or get a single leg.  I was very hard to take down.

2)  The second part of the problem - and this is huge - is the way the Asian Teachers thought and taught.

I was lucky to have a teacher show me a movement like the one I just described, and then break it down for me a couple different ways Western He encouraged me to practice the way for art, and the practical way to learn to fight.  When 2 man drilling or sparring, he told us don't try it the way because it won't work.  Well, Traditional Eastern Teachers believed that Techer Do, Student Repeat. 

The Eastern Teachers rarely taught practical apllications.  It was the student's job to figure it out.  If the student couldn't figure it out, then the Teacher just assumed the student was a bad one.  Well this shit went on in the name of tradition for so long students who eventually branched off and became teachers ... didn't know WTF the actual applications were.

AND THAT, MY FRIENDS, IS WHY TAI CHI CHUAN AND OTHER TMS'S SEEM INEFFECTIVE.

If taught correctly, drilled correctly with partners, and preasure tested, TMAs work.  I KNOW Northern Long Fist and Tai Chi worked for me.  I fought 3 cage fights in the year 2000 - 2001, and I've had two "street fights".  I used the Chinese arts in every one - and this without relying on my State Champion ship in wrestling.

So to wrap this up - TMAs can work.  There is only one real flaw in TMAs that is the TMA's fault - it's a slower way to learn.  You learn stances and traditional drills and forms.  Then you learn realistic drills and applications.  Then you drill and spar.  In MMA you skip the tradition and culture and go straight to realistic drilling.  Therefore, if your only goal is to learrn to fight, then Kung-Fu, Tai Chi, etc is not for you.  If you want a more cultural experience, TMAs can be great for that AND learning to fight.  You just need and instructor who knows how to translate the yoga/dance like motions into practical skills.

I recommend Ramsey Dewey Q&A with The Coach.  He has fought a real Tai Chi Master and said it was amazing.  He uses a few moves from Tai Chi.  He also says for the most part, Kung-Fu is useless but he is always open minded when a new trainee comes in and does something to him in sparring that works.  Ramsey will say, Where'd you learn that?," and some times get an aanswer like, "Ba'Qua," or, "Hsing I."

This is very interesting stuff but the way you break it down its like...

 

if you want to shoot a gun, Tai Chi teaches you how to make gun powder and you have to figure out the rest on your own

 

and MMA teaches you to shoot a gun

 

Yup.  Taught in the traditional manner, you have to learn everything about the gun - how to sand the stock and stain it - how to make the bullets - everything.  And even then, some traditional sifus never actually teach you how to use this contraption made of wood and steel.  That's Eastern Thinking. 

Side Note:  I see it in manufacturing today.  "Made In China".  But how often do you see, "Invented in China."  They are taught to watch and learn, not to understand.

Back on topic - Kung-Fu and Tai Chi can be taught the other way around if a teacher chose to.  Like one sees in every Bruce Lee documentary ever made - you can strip away the disguised techniques and exaggerated dances and just start out in the clinch and start teaching throws.  That's pretty much San Shou and San Da.  There are "pratical" Tai Chi instructors - but that is where most of them have gone.

12 days ago
6/29/02
Posts: 5935

Thanks everyone else for the positive interest.

de braco - I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but sources and conflicting histories is why I don't write and actual book.  Too much work.  But so many times I hear people bagging on TMAs that don't understand  that historically it was necessary to practice that way.

So many examples.  Sai were not originally weapons - they were cotter pins for wagons.  But if some horny Samuraii riding the road decided he was going to fuck you in the ass and then cut your head off, your option was to die or use those cotter pins to try and snap his blade and stab him.

I'm not confused at all.  I am laughing, though.  The Jeffery Dahmer of Samuraii ...

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12715
DagwoodDogwoggle -

Thanks everyone else for the positive interest.

de braco - I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but sources and conflicting histories is why I don't write and actual book.  Too much work.  But so many times I hear people bagging on TMAs that don't understand  that historically it was necessary to practice that way.

So many examples.  Sai were not originally weapons - they were cotter pins for wagons.  But if some horny Samuraii riding the road decided he was going to fuck you in the ass and then cut your head off, your option was to die or use those cotter pins to try and snap his blade and stab him.

I'm not confused at all.  I am laughing, though.  The Jeffery Dahmer of Samuraii ...

shuai jiao predates tai chi, therefore it cannot have evolved from tai chi. What's there to understand, admit it was a faux pas, and move on.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12716

And your san-da/san shou pontifications are fucking hilarious. I take it you're a stand-up comedian trying out new material

12 days ago
6/29/02
Posts: 5936
de braco -

And your san-da/san shou pontifications are fucking hilarious. I take it you're a stand-up comedian trying out new material

Oh - I see - you think you know something and you've gotta be a troll, accusing me of being the mistaken one.

You're wrong.  There was no faux pas.  You did suceed in trolling me, though.  I thought you might want some actual clarification.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12717

Fucking hilarious!! You’re going to slay them with this act! Tai chi predating shuai jiao, San shou coming from traditional Chinese arts. LOL!! I’ve seen the ancient Chinese manuscripts San shou is based on, unfortunately they were written in Russian, Japanese, French and Siamese and I couldn’t make them out.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12718

The Chinamen couldn’t read them either and were forced to just analyze the pictures and constant beatings they took in competition against anyone not Chinese 

12 days ago
1/22/03
Posts: 55300
The take away from this is simple : Don't waste time with this.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12720

Indeed, it will only end in shame for chinaphiles. Fact, common sense and history stand in opposition to Kung pow fu

Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 16245

Seems like the Chinese (at least I think that's where this is from) are learning many of the same types of lessons martial artists learned in the US and Japan during the 1990s. Part of the problem with kata or even outside blocks often used in tma is that they presuppose a particular reaction from an opponent.  But fighting is fluid, changing and humans are unpredictable there are so many rhythms, speeds angdles and variations the human body can muster. It's likely that no 2 fights are ever truly exactly the same. The angles or speed or set up foot position something changes.  Even in boxing where theoretically the attacks are coming either from the left or right hand to the front of the body above the waist, there is almost no way to account for all of the incoming attacks from a skilled opponent.  You're going to get hit and hurt. The only way to fully prepare for that is to be exposed to it in increments over time.  

12 days ago
3/16/15
Posts: 26616
de braco - 
UltimateKeyboardWarrior -
Tmaguru - 
jgiveshead -
Tmaguru -

China has made that MMA dude's life hell.  They reduced his social credit so much he can't take airplanes etc.  

 

The bullshido community in china is strong.

 

True story bro?  If so, China asshoe.

Yes, here are some links detailing a bit of the bullshit China is putting him thru:

 

https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-mma-fighter-xu-xiaodong-fight-survival/article/3047417

 

https://qz.com/1628238/mixed-martial-arts-vs-tai-chi-case-settled-by-court-in-china/

 

China is so fucking backwards.  He is trying to elevate Martial Arts.  They would rather him allow the fake shit to continue.  

 

A bit more on his wiki 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong

 


I don't believe the OP's video is of Xu Xiaodong. I could be wrong, though.

That was not Combat Tai Chi, by the way. Combat Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art.

it's not called grand ultimate fist for nothing


I practice Grand Ultimate Fisting Tai Chi
Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12721
UltimateKeyboardWarrior -
de braco - 
UltimateKeyboardWarrior -
Tmaguru - 
jgiveshead -
Tmaguru -

China has made that MMA dude's life hell.  They reduced his social credit so much he can't take airplanes etc.  

 

The bullshido community in china is strong.

 

True story bro?  If so, China asshoe.

Yes, here are some links detailing a bit of the bullshit China is putting him thru:

 

https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-mma-fighter-xu-xiaodong-fight-survival/article/3047417

 

https://qz.com/1628238/mixed-martial-arts-vs-tai-chi-case-settled-by-court-in-china/

 

China is so fucking backwards.  He is trying to elevate Martial Arts.  They would rather him allow the fake shit to continue.  

 

A bit more on his wiki 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong

 


I don't believe the OP's video is of Xu Xiaodong. I could be wrong, though.

That was not Combat Tai Chi, by the way. Combat Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art.

it's not called grand ultimate fist for nothing


I practice Grand Ultimate Fisting Tai Chi

Please don’t kill Dagwood 

11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 803
I started TC last year after attending a free seminar in a local park.
The teacher of the beginners class that I attend said there is no way he could use TC in a fight. Would't know what to do.
But, the reason I take it is because it helps a whole lot with back pain.
I did't like yoga, seemed to irritate injuries more, but the TC has been perfect for me.

I've shown him a few things I understood from the form that could be used if trained correctly, but that isn't why he studys it, he just enjoys it.
Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/06
Posts: 3942

If I had to fight one of these old fools I would want to win efficiently but without hurting them badly, it's just cruel. 

A friend of mine had to fight a guy with a Kung Fu background to qualify for a tournament. I asked him if he would take it easy on him and he said yes, just a takedown and a choke. There is no need to give these guys a beating and humiliate them. 

Anyway, he won, quickly, without hurting his opponent. Which was nice. 

11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12722

Mercy is wasted on Kung pows, they see it as weakness