UnderGround Forums UFC 4..Where was Ken Shamrock?!?

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48186
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?

10 days ago
5/1/11
Posts: 4844

UFC 4 in Tulsa Oklahoma was a tremendous show with an amazing ending.  The most dramatic ending to an early UFC show.

10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20224
ons ear - 
Tim Duncan - 

Ken never won a tournament in the UFC.  For Royce to do it multiple times is amazing


Ken never even fought in the finals of a ufc tournament! Not once



Yeah... so?


He beat fighters that won UFC tournaments.


He was one of the very best fighters of that era.

Are you disputing this?
10 days ago
9/27/15
Posts: 12295
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?
10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20225
Winston Wolf - 

again do u think the berry fight was real ? did u even watch it



Watched it when it happened.

Just watched the vid you posted.


I agree the right doesn't land clean, but the left before it clips Ken on the chin.

Plenty of guys have been rocked then gone down to a glancing blow that lands after the strike that started it.
It's not always instantaneous.


I can't say for sure one way or another, of course.


But I think it's kind of silly to be so certain its fake.

Ken's injuries and wear and tear had him pretty chinny towards the end of his career.


10 days ago
9/27/15
Posts: 12296
onepunchJD - 
ons ear - 
Tim Duncan - 

Ken never won a tournament in the UFC.  For Royce to do it multiple times is amazing


Ken never even fought in the finals of a ufc tournament! Not once



Yeah... so?


He beat fighters that won UFC tournaments.


He was one of the very best fighters of that era.

Are you disputing this?

He was a very good fighter in that era but quite a bit overrated..he should have accomplished more (going by the hype surrounding him) in the UFC or Mma but he didn't..

Shamrocks a bigger disappointment in Mma than Ruas
10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20226
ons ear - 
onepunchJD - 
Winston Wolf - 

im not going to look for it but he gave up his KOP title in a work and did a work with Matt Hume thats 5 at least




Yes the Hume fight, 2 with Suzuki, and 1 with Funaki were works.

That's been fairly well established.

The first Suzuki fight has been questioned. Rumor has it Ken was told not to hurt him, so he was holding back.




Do you not see the error in your reasoning here? Shamrock gave up his Kop title(which is in your opinion just as prestigious as a ufc title) in a work! Then you mention several other KNOWN works..you can only guess as to which other fights were worked and which weren't..you have no idea which others were worked

It is strange though how dominant Shamrock was in Pancrase though yet in Mma he never even fought in the finals of a single ufc tournament! If both leagues were the same sport then why didn't Ken ever hold the ufc belt?

You mention Ken running through Severn the first time but seem to totally forget the second fight ..it was mostly a square dance but when Severn did get on top of Shamrock he beat him bLoody..Shamrock had absolutely nothing for Severn in the rematch and don't blame it on the "only open handed punches" rule..besides, that's what Ken was supposedly so good at though in Pancrase right?




""""Do you not see the error in your reasoning here? Shamrock gave up his Kop title(which is in your opinion just as prestigious as a ufc title) in a work!""""


I guess you are not aware of the culture in Japan back then.
Pancrase was an off shoot of pro wrestling.
An attempt to go legit shoot.
But there were growing pains, and some worked fights as it got going.
This is common knowledge man.
You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.
MMA wasn't really even a thing back then. The UFC was breaking ground as far as NHB, but it was still a fringe thing.
Part of the reason Ken left Pancrase was that they were asking him to put guys over.



""""you have no idea which others were worked""""


Umm, yeah..
I actually have a pretty good idea.
And so do a lot of people.
There is actually an entire history here that has been discussed at length on this forum, and elsewhere.
There is generally a consensus on which fights were worked, and worth a couple exceptions, there is little controversy among those knowledgeable of that era.
The first Suzuki fight gets argued about a little... IIRC that's about it.

All of Ken's Pancrase "losses" were works.
One of his "wins" -- Matt Hume -- was an excibition.
The sunset flip finish was the big tell there, lol.


Again...
These things have been discussed at length by some of the more knowledgeable posters here, on many threads, for years.

It sounds like you are new to the conversation:)



"""""" It is strange though how dominant Shamrock was in Pancrase though yet in Mma he never even fought in the finals of a single ufc tournament! If both leagues were the same sport then why didn't Ken ever hold the ufc belt?""""""

Ken did hold a UFC belt, the superfight belt.
Yes, it was an actual belt.
Ken retained this belt after a draw with Royce, and after beating the previous tournament winner, Dan Severn.
And before you criticize the superfight belt -- you might remember that the UFC got away from the tournament format, and the Superfight belt became the HW title going from Severn to Coleman.


""""""You mention Ken running through Severn the first time but seem to totally forget the second fight ..it was mostly a square dance but when Severn did get on top of Shamrock he beat him bLoody..Shamrock had absolutely nothing for Severn in the rematch and don't blame it on the "only open handed punches" rule..besides, that's what Ken was supposedly so good at though in Pancrase right?""""""


That fight was ridiculous, and should have been a NC for both guys.
But Dan didn't "beat Ken bloody" lol, you're exaggerating a small part of the fight.
Also, Ken reversed him.
The Dance in Detroit was bullshit, and while I might not agree with Ken's decision to follow the "rules" -- he had his reasons.
But Severn fought a boring shitty fight too... same as he did vs Kimo in Pride.
So Ken only deserves part of blame for that one.

When they actually did fight without controversy, Ken subbed him.





10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20227
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?




Right.

Which is why I qualified it by explaining the history of the rumors, and that Ash only backed those rumors up. It didn't just pop up out of nowhere.

I don't consider it a "fact".
I consider it a pretty reliable story though.
It was similar to people hearing about how Chuck dominated Tito in training.
We were talking about that in gyms and on the UG before Rogan ever mentioned it on the UFC broadcast.



Yes I just rewatched it and posted about it.
10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20228
ons ear - 
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?



Who knows but Ken was in the WWF at the time.

If you are suggesting Ken was somehow scared of Coleman... I really don't think his career backs that up.

Coleman also turned down a fight with Ken in Pride, saying he needed more time to fight a guy of Ken's caliber.

So I would say there was mutual respect there.
10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20229
ons ear - 
onepunchJD - 
ons ear - 
Tim Duncan - 

Ken never won a tournament in the UFC.  For Royce to do it multiple times is amazing


Ken never even fought in the finals of a ufc tournament! Not once



Yeah... so?


He beat fighters that won UFC tournaments.


He was one of the very best fighters of that era.

Are you disputing this?

He was a very good fighter in that era but quite a bit overrated..he should have accomplished more (going by the hype surrounding him) in the UFC or Mma but he didn't..

Shamrocks a bigger disappointment in Mma than Ruas



I agree he underachieved.


But he still had a damn good run in the 90s.


I personally wish he hadn't gone to WWF.
10 days ago
10/14/12
Posts: 1166
https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forums/UnderGround/Ken-Shamrock-KOd-Mark-Coleman-in-training-:2194776-2
10 days ago
10/14/12
Posts: 1167
Coleman on Shamrock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQcAKO2qK0&list=LLqvztCi-gr0x7ORZdgVccpQ&index=167
10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 63752
onepunchJD -
Tim Duncan - 

I Believe Ken could have KOed Coleman in training but I would pick Coleman in MMA every time.  Ken has a heel hooks chance but I'd bet the farm on Coleman.

 

I also don't think Ken could beat Royce, Royce had his number and is still living in his head.  Ken had a great career but there are some guys you cannot beat,  go ask DC



I'd pick Ken to beat Coleman had they fought in the late 90s.
I can't see Coleman finishing Ken quickly enough. Ken had better cardio and was just as strong if not stronger.
I think Ken weathers some G&P and gets a submission after Coleman got tired.

Ken was a much better fighter than Pete Williams.


Either way... it's one of the fights I wish we had gotten to see.




As far as Royce.. I guess it's a good thing for him there weren't judges in the second fight :).
The fight was lackluster, but Ken roughed Royce up from high in the guard in the OT period.
Royce had nothing for Ken at the end of that fight.

You Could be right. You can't say that Ken would have better than Petey or Tra,  no guarantee he beats Coleman or Igor

10 days ago
4/18/20
Posts: 153

Bottom line is Ken Shamrock could of easily won ufc 3 against Harold Howard but he was above that and trained for Royce and was injured by the time of the finals, he’s done more than a lot of people in mma

Edited: 10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20231
SuperFightFan - https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forums/UnderGround/Ken-Shamrock-KOd-Mark-Coleman-in-training-:2194776-2


I just TTTd that thread.




10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20233
shamrockGOATmma - 

Bottom line is Ken Shamrock could of easily won ufc 3 against Harold Howard but he was above that and trained for Royce and was injured by the time of the finals, he’s done more than a lot of people in mma



I agree he would have won.


IMO he should have fought.
He had his reasons, and yes he was fighting with an injury.
But even Bob Shamrock was pissed at Ken for not doing it.
Everyone knows he would have pummeled Howard.


In Ken's defense...
At the time it was still a very young sport, and Ken was well established with victories in both the US and Japan.

He probably wasn't thinking about his historical legacy at the time -- and he certainly wasn't thinking about what UGers would be saying about him more than 2 decades later lol.

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48187
ons ear -
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?

the purpose was the fight was in Berrys hometown in England to push the hometown guy...PS love FSN best magazine if u want to call it  a magazine ever

Edited: 10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48188
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

again do u think the berry fight was real ? did u even watch it



Watched it when it happened.

Just watched the vid you posted.


I agree the right doesn't land clean, but the left before it clips Ken on the chin.

Plenty of guys have been rocked then gone down to a glancing blow that lands after the strike that started it.
It's not always instantaneous.


I can't say for sure one way or another, of course.


But I think it's kind of silly to be so certain its fake.

Ken's injuries and wear and tear had him pretty chinny towards the end of his career.

 

 the KO punch clearly didnt land ,Thats not chinny thats a dive  Ken also didnt thrown any  hard head punches or do anything.

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48189
onepunchJD -
ons ear - 
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?



Who knows but Ken was in the WWF at the time.

If you are suggesting Ken was somehow scared of Coleman... I really don't think his career backs that up.

Coleman also turned down a fight with Ken in Pride, saying he needed more time to fight a guy of Ken's caliber.

So I would say there was mutual respect there.

u   need to site your sources..

10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20239
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

again do u think the berry fight was real ? did u even watch it



Watched it when it happened.

Just watched the vid you posted.


I agree the right doesn't land clean, but the left before it clips Ken on the chin.

Plenty of guys have been rocked then gone down to a glancing blow that lands after the strike that started it.
It's not always instantaneous.


I can't say for sure one way or another, of course.


But I think it's kind of silly to be so certain its fake.

Ken's injuries and wear and tear had him pretty chinny towards the end of his career.


that was clearly fake and the KO punch clearly didnt land ,Thats not chinny thats a dive ( textbook ) Ken also didnt thrown any head punches or do anything.6 worked fights at least



Watch the left straight before the right.

Sometimes all it takes is a glancing blow or clip to the chin to wobble a guy.

I can understand you questioning it.
I cannot understand you being so sure.



Not sure what you are getting at with the worked fights.
The pancrase stuff is old news.




10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20240
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
ons ear - 
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?



Who knows but Ken was in the WWF at the time.

If you are suggesting Ken was somehow scared of Coleman... I really don't think his career backs that up.

Coleman also turned down a fight with Ken in Pride, saying he needed more time to fight a guy of Ken's caliber.

So I would say there was mutual respect there.

u   need to site your sources..




Common knowledge does not require a citation :)


I already told you about the Ashe Bowman thing, and you doubted me.
Well someone on this page, posted the link to a thread about Shamrock KOing Coleman, and I TTTd it.

So its up now, and only 2 pages.
A quick read.


I don't have time to go back and research everything I say, and I rarely even use google when debating things. Once in a while I'll go double check myself on the year something happened, or something like that, but not often.
The only reason I used google today was because you said Ashe Bowman wasn't on there.


I post off the top of my head, and if I'm not 100% on something, I am usually careful to point it out.



I don't mind disagreeing, and I'm getting the vibe that Ken isn't your favorite dude.
That's fine.


But I don't come on here and post bullshit.
I'm not saying I'm never wrong...
But I tend to think I have a pretty good track record.






Edited: 10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20242

SuperFightFan posted the thread link.

Just bumped the thread again.


The UG moves slow these days, so it should be on the first couple pages for a while.


I was actually on the other threads I referred to on the first page.
Noticed I wasn't on the thread SuperFightFan posted until today.

That means there was more than one thread where it was discussed.

As I said -- the Shamrock/Coleman KO thing was widely talked about back in the day.





What's funny is, it doesn't even matter.
Coleman is one of my all time favorites!

I was responding to a guy saying Shammy couldn't KO Severn.
Nobody doubted the Toughman competitions, lol.

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48190
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
ons ear - 
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?



Who knows but Ken was in the WWF at the time.

If you are suggesting Ken was somehow scared of Coleman... I really don't think his career backs that up.

Coleman also turned down a fight with Ken in Pride, saying he needed more time to fight a guy of Ken's caliber.

So I would say there was mutual respect there.

u   need to site your sources..




Common knowledge does not require a citation :)


I already told you about the Ashe Bowman thing, and you doubted me.
Well someone on this page, posted the link to a thread about Shamrock KOing Coleman, and I TTTd it.

So its up now, and only 2 pages.
A quick read.


I don't have time to go back and research everything I say, and I rarely even use google when debating things. Once in a while I'll go double check myself on the year something happened, or something like that, but not often.
The only reason I used google today was because you said Ashe Bowman wasn't on there.


I post off the top of my head, and if I'm not 100% on something, I am usually careful to point it out.



I don't mind disagreeing, and I'm getting the vibe that Ken isn't your favorite dude.
That's fine.


But I don't come on here and post bullshit.
I'm not saying I'm never wrong...
But I tend to think I have a pretty good track record.






i havent missed  a day on the forum in 20 years except a few when on vacation i dont recall hearing Coleman ducking Ken or anyone especially this is a guy who was in the grand prix fought Igor v and was willing ot fight anyone in the tourney including his buddy kerr.im not a fan of ken because of the works but i respect ur a good fan of his

Edited: 10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 48191
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

again do u think the berry fight was real ? did u even watch it



Watched it when it happened.

Just watched the vid you posted.


I agree the right doesn't land clean, but the left before it clips Ken on the chin.

Plenty of guys have been rocked then gone down to a glancing blow that lands after the strike that started it.
It's not always instantaneous.


I can't say for sure one way or another, of course.


But I think it's kind of silly to be so certain its fake.

Ken's injuries and wear and tear had him pretty chinny towards the end of his career.

 

that was clearly fake and the KO punch clearly didnt land ,Thats not chinny thats a dive ( textbook ) Ken also didnt thrown any head punches or do anything.6 worked fights at least



Watch the left straight before the right.

Sometimes all it takes is a glancing blow or clip to the chin to wobble a guy.

I can understand you questioning it.
I cannot understand you being so sure.



Not sure what you are getting at with the worked fights.
The pancrase stuff is old news.



 

i was sure before the fight as were many here .the reason is the guy was a homer who has never faced top competition .no way ken goes down that easy from ajab and missed punch and he also didnt throw any hard punches or do anything offensive .im so sure because i been a hardcore fan a long time The Kimbo fight they clinch talk and then the fight is over 1 minute later from missed punches same as the Berry fight but not quite as bad,,The Franklin fight Ken goes  down from clearly a  missed punch,Im a purple belt not a superstar but thats not how u go for a heal hook thats a dive Too many questionable endings for me.No doubt he was  a tough dude in his day but becauase of that not a fan

10 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20244
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
ons ear - 
Winston Wolf - 
onepunchJD -
Winston Wolf - 

google ashe bowman u get nothing




https://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ashe-Bowman-9406

ok but that doesnt mean it did or didnt happen It very well could have happened .Did u watch the Berry fight ?


Ok so let's say Ashe Bowman did see Shamrock KO Coleman in training..so what?! That tends to happen in training..what one punch diesnt tell you is that when Coleman and Ken trained together, Ken didn't want to grapple or wrestle with Mark so they didn't..Coleman goes into detail in an old FSN issue that I'll dig up later on..kind of bizarre how Ken didn't want to train grappling with Mark eh? I wonder why that was..?

that Berry fight is very strange..I don't even remember when that took place but why would Ken take a dive for Berry? It's quite obvious a fix of some order was in effect for that fight but I don't get the purpose behind it..?



Who knows but Ken was in the WWF at the time.

If you are suggesting Ken was somehow scared of Coleman... I really don't think his career backs that up.

Coleman also turned down a fight with Ken in Pride, saying he needed more time to fight a guy of Ken's caliber.

So I would say there was mutual respect there.

u   need to site your sources..




Common knowledge does not require a citation :)


I already told you about the Ashe Bowman thing, and you doubted me.
Well someone on this page, posted the link to a thread about Shamrock KOing Coleman, and I TTTd it.

So its up now, and only 2 pages.
A quick read.


I don't have time to go back and research everything I say, and I rarely even use google when debating things. Once in a while I'll go double check myself on the year something happened, or something like that, but not often.
The only reason I used google today was because you said Ashe Bowman wasn't on there.


I post off the top of my head, and if I'm not 100% on something, I am usually careful to point it out.



I don't mind disagreeing, and I'm getting the vibe that Ken isn't your favorite dude.
That's fine.


But I don't come on here and post bullshit.
I'm not saying I'm never wrong...
But I tend to think I have a pretty good track record.






i havent missed  a day on the forum in 20 years except a few when on vacation i dont recall hearing Coleman ducking Ken or anyone especially this is a guy who was in the grand prix fought Igor v and was willing ot fight anyone in the tourney including his buddy kerr.im not a fan of ken because of the works but i respect ur a good fan of his




I didn't say he ducked him.

It was more of a respect thing IMO.



Check the other thread it comes up.