UnderGround Forums UFC 5 Gracie vs Shamrock superfight

5/7/17 12:31 AM
9/27/15
Posts: 2517
what are peoples thoughts on this fight?

anyone that was lucky or unlucky enough to watch it live on ppv, what were your thoughts going into the fight?was Royce still invincible to you guys at that time?

to this day i dont know what Kens gameplan was going into the fight..he took Royce down and laid on him, even his dad was begging him to "do something Ken!" yet he just seemed content with surviving and getting a draw..

was this fight originally supposed to be no time limit?

after the fight did everyone think Ken won since he landed the punch?
5/7/17 3:09 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 18503
The fight had a 30 minute time limit. The previous event, UFC 4, went passed the PPV time slot. Some regions cut the event short and did not broadcast the ending of the final match - Royce VS Severn. So at UFC 5, they started time limits.

When the match between Royce and Ken ended with no winner (30 minutes), they added the 5 minute overtime, which hadn't been planned. At the beginning of the over time restart on the feet, Ken landed that punch to Royce's face, swelling it up big time.

Me personally... I think it was more of a victory for Royce. You had a bigger and stronger Ken, who simply laid in Royce's guard, too afraid to do anything. He was afraid to stick his head up and barely even punched. He just kept his head and arms tucked in, away from any potential choke or lock.
5/7/17 3:16 AM
1/15/07
Posts: 11634

Was this period considered Shamrock's "prime"?

5/7/17 3:29 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 18507
Pretty much Shamrock's prime, yes.

At the next event, UFC 6, Shamrock faced UFC 5 tournament champion Dan Severn in the Superfight, and won.
5/7/17 5:07 AM
4/20/08
Posts: 16705

People might think that mouse on Royce's eye was something, but I would rather have that than piss blood for days like Shammy was doing after the fight. 

5/7/17 8:49 AM
10/27/03
Posts: 18003

Hasn't Ken always claimed he didn't know there was a time limit or he was told on the day of the event or something?

i remember a long loooong ago interview with him saying  he was training for a 2+ hr fight and was content to wait Royce out.

5/7/17 10:44 AM
5/7/09
Posts: 1644
I thought I remembered hearing Ken wanted to prove he could stay in Royce's guard and not be submitted.

Seems like a horrible idea, if true.
5/7/17 10:46 AM
5/7/09
Posts: 1645
Ken had a couple really bad fights like this.

Ken vs Royce 2

Ken vs Severn 2

Ken vs Taktarav (more action in comparison)
5/7/17 10:50 AM
6/27/02
Posts: 5291
Stalling in the BJJ scene was called Shamrocking for quite a while after that fight. It was not a good look for Ken... It was a draw but Royce came out of it looking a whole lot better than Ken did (obviously I don't mean physically because of the swelling)
5/7/17 12:47 PM
11/28/03
Posts: 92800

the ken pissing blood thing is a myth. ken said he never pissed any blood.

by todays judging, ken won

i'd have preferred he did a sprawl and brawl strategy. he had no cardio issues back then.

i believe it takes 2 to stall. royce tried like 2 subs and never got close. if his grappling was really worlds beyond kens, he coulda done much more. 

5/7/17 1:06 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 1040
I saw it at a bar and think that most people there thought Ken won the fight because of the OT punch.

I think Ken said his strategy was something about not making a mistake because that is how the GJJ guys win fights...they capitalize on your mistake. He wanted Royce to be an aggressor rather than a counter fighter.

Not a good fight but Ken/Severn II was much worse.
5/7/17 1:12 PM
7/20/04
Posts: 438
People seem to forget that Royce had an ezekial choke sunk in on Shamrock in the first 5 minutes. Ken was turning blue, almost out, when he broke the grip.

Those saying Royce did nothing need to reexamine the fight - that choke had Royce closer to winning the fight than Ken's OT punch did
5/7/17 1:19 PM
5/31/05
Posts: 1511
"by todays judging, ken won"

By today's rules, the fight would never have happened, since Ken was substantially heavier than Royce.
5/7/17 1:44 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2652
ons ear - what are peoples thoughts on this fight?

anyone that was lucky or unlucky enough to watch it live on ppv, what were your thoughts going into the fight?was Royce still invincible to you guys at that time?

to this day i dont know what Kens gameplan was going into the fight..he took Royce down and laid on him, even his dad was begging him to "do something Ken!" yet he just seemed content with surviving and getting a draw..

was this fight originally supposed to be no time limit?

after the fight did everyone think Ken won since he landed the punch?

I went to it live. Went to a seminar early in the day with Helio, Rorion, Relson and Rolker
5/7/17 2:06 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 18508
It doesn't always take two to stall. It only takes one if it's a bigger and much stronger guy wanting it that way and hiding.

A smaller and weaker BJJ fighter uses what force or attack his opponent gives him. And Ken was too afraid to do anything, especially after Royce threatened with the Ezekiel choke.
5/7/17 2:42 PM
7/27/04
Posts: 18535
pickula - "by todays judging, ken won"

By today's rules, the fight would never have happened, since Ken was substantially heavier than Royce.

Texas disagrees

5/7/17 7:52 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 10582
Still don't understand why shamrock wouldn't avoid the ground... Instead he takes it there twice intentionally.

Fantastic game plan. Amazing. Especially against a non striking non wrestling bjjer.
5/7/17 8:55 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50808

Ken was happy with a draw. He could've beat the shit out of Royce standing but he fought with a terrible gameplan instead.

5/7/17 10:28 PM
1/26/17
Posts: 116
ken had a youtube video about this. He just basically felt comfortable neutralizing gracie in that guard position. ken could care less about the kidney heel kicks.

i was a royce nuthugger so my thought was, why couldn't he magically get a rear naked choke from that position cuz watching in-action 2, Rickson was able to from that position on zulu.

5/7/17 11:24 PM
10/27/03
Posts: 18009
cumprido1 - Still don't understand why shamrock wouldn't avoid the ground... Instead he takes it there twice intentionally.

Fantastic game plan. Amazing. Especially against a non striking non wrestling bjjer.

Different now, but you gotta remember that this was the early/mid 90s.
Ken was a ground submission specialist and 100% of his fights ended in submission, with 95% of them being him as the winner.
He wasn't going to follow a 'make him stand and trade' strategy.

Also, it seems obvious now, but it wasn't really until Sakuraba that the strategy of 'only go to the ground when you feel like it' became a thing.
For a time there, it was considered almost cowardly to refuse to engage while the BJJ guy lay on his back and dared you to come down ... leading to a lot of strikers just diving in every time with no strategy at all lol


5/7/17 11:32 PM
1/2/08
Posts: 4605
Non N00B - 

People might think that mouse on Royce's eye was something, but I would rather have that than piss blood for days like Shammy was doing after the fight. 


Yeah I believe after that was when they disallowed heel strikes to the kidneys wasn't it?
5/7/17 11:59 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 30237
FingerorMoon - 
cumprido1 - Still don't understand why shamrock wouldn't avoid the ground... Instead he takes it there twice intentionally.

Fantastic game plan. Amazing. Especially against a non striking non wrestling bjjer.

Different now, but you gotta remember that this was the early/mid 90s.
Ken was a ground submission specialist and 100% of his fights ended in submission, with 95% of them being him as the winner.
He wasn't going to follow a 'make him stand and trade' strategy.

Also, it seems obvious now, but it wasn't really until Sakuraba that the strategy of 'only go to the ground when you feel like it' became a thing.
For a time there, it was considered almost cowardly to refuse to engage while the BJJ guy lay on his back and dared you to come down ... leading to a lot of strikers just diving in every time with no strategy at all lol



Ken's rationale was always to prove some kind of point, even if it kept him from actually "winning" the fight.

I remember reading that Ken wanted to prove to Royce that he couldn't tap him. Ken wanted to play Royce's game and prove that Royce's BJJ was not effective against him. LOL, whatever. Just sprawl-n-brawl and knock him out, then.
5/8/17 1:28 AM
4/20/08
Posts: 16711

Dont forget, Royce fought Ken 3 times now and has submitted him twice and tko'd him

5/8/17 8:49 AM
2/22/09
Posts: 10150
ons ear - what are peoples thoughts on this fight?

anyone that was lucky or unlucky enough to watch it live on ppv, what were your thoughts going into the fight?was Royce still invincible to you guys at that time?

to this day i dont know what Kens gameplan was going into the fight..he took Royce down and laid on him, even his dad was begging him to "do something Ken!" yet he just seemed content with surviving and getting a draw..

was this fight originally supposed to be no time limit?

after the fight did everyone think Ken won since he landed the punch?

It seems somewhat ridiculous now but I was on the edge of my seat for the entire fight.

Royce was viewed as pretty close to invincible but the rematch with Ken was widely seen as his biggest challenge.

Ken trained to neutralize Royce's guard and his game plan was not to make a mistake. Up to that point nobody had managed to survive against Royce and for Ken a draw was a win.

After the fight who won was debated for years...
5/8/17 12:21 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 50810
Non N00B -

Dont forget, Royce fought Ken 3 times now and has submitted him twice and tko'd him

Fake news