UnderGround Forums Was Mike Tyson better than Roy Jones?

11/28/20 4:58 PM
7/22/13
Posts: 3385

 

11/28/20 4:59 PM
7/22/13
Posts: 3386

Of course he was more feared and the bigger draw but was he actually a better fighter? 
 

I say no way whatsoever 

11/28/20 5:09 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 22999
OnlyPirateFan - 

Of course he was more feared and the bigger draw but was he actually a better fighter? 
 

I say no way whatsoever 



How do you figure?

Prime Tyson's technique complimented his explosive power.
He had excellent head movement and defense, along with killer combos and all-time power and speed.
Tyson also had an all-time chin.

RJJ used superior timing and reflex, and is absolutely one of the all time greats p4p.


Both at their peaks... I can't see RJJ beating Tyson.
He might ride his bike and try to play the bull fighter.
Bit Tyson took big shots from big natural HWs, and sent many big natural HWs to the canvas.


If you're talking skill -- IMO that's relative to the $tyles ot fighters they are/were.
They played to their strengths.

If you're talking who was more formidable absolute -- has to be Tyson -- one of the most destructive HWs ever.


All of that really has nothing to do with tonight though.
There are a lot of factors to consider tonight -- and peak ability is not foremost on the list.
11/28/20 5:19 PM
2/17/03
Posts: 17097

Roy is more accomplished, IMO.

11/28/20 5:54 PM
2/28/14
Posts: 1339

Roy looked slow and weak against Ruiz. A prime Tyson in that spot would have finished Roy. Even a 2003 Tyson likely would have.

11/28/20 7:41 PM
7/22/13
Posts: 3387

You guys are mistaken the op. I asked who was the better fighter, not who win a matchup against each other 

11/28/20 7:59 PM
7/20/01
Posts: 8128
I'm trying to recall each of their biggest wins. For Tyson, is it Spinks, then Berbick or an old Larry Holmes? For RJJ - young Hopkins or Toney, then old Trinidad?

In terms of colloquial name value, rather than credential on paper.
11/28/20 8:03 PM
2/17/03
Posts: 17100
OnlyPirateFan - 

You guys are mistaken the op. I asked who was the better fighter, not who win a matchup against each other 


I thought I addressed that when I said RJJ was more accomplished. I think Roy was the better p4p boxer. Not a better heavyweight, though.

11/28/20 8:04 PM
3/11/15
Posts: 2500

Love Iron Mike, but his best win was an aged Holmes.

Roy was the better fighter. If Roy had retired after the Ruiz fight, we'd be calling him the best of all time.

11/28/20 8:12 PM
2/28/14
Posts: 1342

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

11/28/20 8:16 PM
4/11/11
Posts: 9760
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Honestly, the top guys in Tyson's era both beat him easily. Holyfield and Lewis. Holmes, Spinks and rhe other guys you mentioned were not on that level. Roy Jones won belts in multiple weight divisions. 

11/28/20 8:17 PM
12/4/18
Posts: 7454

Tysons brains are scrambled. He’s going to lose to the more skilled Roy Jones. Tyson is going to crumble and quit. 

11/28/20 8:27 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 23007
OnlyPirateFan - 

You guys are mistaken the op. I asked who was the better fighter, not who win a matchup against each other 



The "better fighter" is relative to how you want to define it.

"Absolute" basically means head-to-head.

"P4P" is generally viewed as skill and accomplishment regardless of weight.
However, the P4P thing is kind of a flawed title IMO.
Generally speaking, it's assumed that a smaller fighter who is rated higher "P4P", would beat the bigger fighter, if they were the same size.
However, that is flawed logic IMO, because it often ignores what each fighter would gain/lose if they were naturally bigger/smaller -- and had trained/fought within those significant differences.


So what do you mean by "better fighter"?

Relative to their strengths, both Tyson and RJJ utilized a $tyle most beneficial to them.

Career-wise:
Tyson's decline was as sharp and exaggerated as anyone.
So most of the all time greats have a consistency advantage over him.

That said, in terms of peak ability -- Tyson is arguably in the conversation with anyone -- especially at HW.


So how do you define "better fighter"?
11/28/20 8:28 PM
4/11/11
Posts: 9761
Gennady Goblin -

Roy looked slow and weak against Ruiz. A prime Tyson in that spot would have finished Roy. Even a 2003 Tyson likely would have.

Roy was never a heavyweight. The fact that he went all the way up and won the heavyweight belt is better than anything Tyson ever did. When Tyson was coming up and knocking out guys left right and centre, it was the weakest the heavyweight division had been in decades. 

11/28/20 8:31 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 23008
wiggum - 
OnlyPirateFan - 

You guys are mistaken the op. I asked who was the better fighter, not who win a matchup against each other 


I thought I addressed that when I said RJJ was more accomplished. I think Roy was the better p4p boxer. Not a better heavyweight, though.




It's more nuanced than the blanket "p4p" statement IMO.


11/28/20 8:35 PM
2/28/14
Posts: 1345
Sir Psycho Sexy -
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Honestly, the top guys in Tyson's era both beat him easily. Holyfield and Lewis. Holmes, Spinks and rhe other guys you mentioned were not on that level. Roy Jones won belts in multiple weight divisions. 

If we're talking about years after Tyson was in prison and had faded considerably from the late 80s phenom that got everyone's attention, then the comparison has to be to compare those Tyson years to the Roy post-heavyweight years. Where he was KO'd flat dead by Tarver and Johnson, and Joe Calzaghe clowned him worse than Roy ever clowned anyone, and Danny Green KO'd Roy in 1 round, and Lebedev KO'd him stiff as a door knob, and Enzo Macarinelli had Roy faceplanting.

Those are the level of fighters that were murdering a washed up Roy. Tyson losing to Holyfield and Lewis when he was washed up makes him a god in comparison.

11/28/20 8:35 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 23009
Sir Psycho Sexy - 
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Honestly, the top guys in Tyson's era both beat him easily. Holyfield and Lewis. Holmes, Spinks and rhe other guys you mentioned were not on that level. Roy Jones won belts in multiple weight divisions. 



Neither of those guys fought peak Tyson -- especially Lewis.


Not saying they couldn't have won.
We don't know.

But there is a HUGE difference between peak run (Rooney/Jacobs) Tyson -- and the dumbed down head-hunter who was still able to win a title in the 90s.
11/28/20 8:43 PM
5/10/04
Posts: 23010
Sir Psycho Sexy - 
Gennady Goblin -

Roy looked slow and weak against Ruiz. A prime Tyson in that spot would have finished Roy. Even a 2003 Tyson likely would have.

Roy was never a heavyweight. The fact that he went all the way up and won the heavyweight belt is better than anything Tyson ever did. When Tyson was coming up and knocking out guys left right and centre, it was the weakest the heavyweight division had been in decades. 



It only seems "weak" because Tyson made some damn good fighters look like boys fighting a man -- and because it was sandwiched by a couple of relative "golden eras" of HW talent.

The fact that even the plodding headhunter version of Tyson (who was a mere shadow of his former self in the 90s) -- was able to win a title -- speaks volumes about Tyson's in-ring presence.

Edited: 11/28/20 9:14 PM
4/11/11
Posts: 9762
Gennady Goblin -
Sir Psycho Sexy -
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Honestly, the top guys in Tyson's era both beat him easily. Holyfield and Lewis. Holmes, Spinks and rhe other guys you mentioned were not on that level. Roy Jones won belts in multiple weight divisions. 

If we're talking about years after Tyson was in prison and had faded considerably from the late 80s phenom that got everyone's attention, then the comparison has to be to compare those Tyson years to the Roy post-heavyweight years. Where he was KO'd flat dead by Tarver and Johnson, and Joe Calzaghe clowned him worse than Roy ever clowned anyone, and Danny Green KO'd Roy in 1 round, and Lebedev KO'd him stiff as a door knob, and Enzo Macarinelli had Roy faceplanting.

Those are the level of fighters that were murdering a washed up Roy. Tyson losing to Holyfield and Lewis when he was washed up makes him a god in comparison.

Roy was passed his prime when he came down from heavyweight. He was already 34 when he won the HW title and, and he still came down and defended his light heavyweight titles 8 months later. By the time he fought chumps like Danny Green, he was 40 years old.

11/29/20 2:58 AM
12/27/13
Posts: 230

Peak tyson was the boxer he was before he ever won the title. all hope and potential.

 

once he won the title he lost it quickly to a mediocre fighter in douglas. that exposed him. he went to jail soon after and thats tyson. he was bound to implode and his peak was only going to last a few short years. peaked early and wasnt meant to sustain that level of success into his 30s

11/29/20 3:25 AM
4/11/07
Posts: 35498

 

11/29/20 3:44 AM
5/4/14
Posts: 27392
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Mike ducked so many guys in their prime. Never fought Foreman, Moorer, Bowe and waited for Holyfield to age out and still got smoked. Tyson fans love revisionist history. 

11/29/20 4:17 AM
8/20/08
Posts: 5727
Gennady Goblin -

Tyson unified all the heavyweight belts and beat the top guys that were available to him. Tony Tucker was 34--0, Tyrell Biggs 15-0. Larry Holmes was the best of the previous era and arguably beat Spinks in the 2nd fight, Tyson KO'd him right after that. Also KO'd the undefeated Spinks in 1 round, Spinks being in the top 3 light heavyweights in the history of the sport. Razor Ruddock was the next big contender coming up, Tyson beat him twice in a row. Alex Stewart was 26-1, had a hell of a fight with Holyfield that he lost, Mike took him out in 1 round. That run before jail was something else. Even after he got out of prison, he came right back and started wiping out title holders. Rematched Frank Bruno, KO'd him again. Bruce Seldon shit himself and flopped to avoid a beating. Ran through other solid heavyweights in Savarese, Botha, and Golota. Lots of names on the record, lots of champions, lots of performances where he ripped through people, even with his best days longs gone. 

Then you have Roy. Beat a weight drained Toney, a green Hopkins, proceeded to not fight anyone except lame mandatories for 10 years. Beat Ruiz who was the paperiest of paper champs. Never looked the same after coming back down to light heavyweight, proceeded to get KO'd and embarrassed by every top guy he ever fought again. 

Tyson has the much better resume, more skill, more power. The same height as Roy and was killing huge heavyweights. Roy was simply a super athlete who reigned over some lame divisions and never went out of his way to fight the opponents people wanted to see most.

Toney weight drained would still have beaten every other 168lber then. Hopkins had more fights than RJJ when they fought. Ruiz beaten Holyfield to win the HW crown.

11/29/20 4:36 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 17496

Roy was the more talented athlete by far. 

11/29/20 5:53 AM
6/5/14
Posts: 479

What we saw today is someone who actually trained and someone who didn’t. RJJ was totally fooked after 1 round when he threw only 3 punches