UnderGround Forums Which popular fighter will have the worst CTE?

8 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 61687
Choked72 - 
Kirik -

I have followed CTE pretty closely, and I don't think it's the monster KOs that does it. I think it's the sub-concussive blows from sparring 3 x a week, for 20 years. So the guys most likely to develop CTE are not going to be obvious from looking at the ass end of highlight reels.

Can you elaborate on what you see as some of the other variables to accelerating CTE?

For example, size/weight class? Lifestyle? Diet? Sport(I assume boxing would be the most impactful)?


The number on contributing factor is head trauma. After that, even for smart people, it's just guess work. For me, it's like making s up.

But,  yah, I think it's the hard sparring. It sort of stands to reason biologically. Via falls, violence, etc, we get hit hugely in the head occassionally during our life. That should leave us f'd to tears. But I don't think we are woodpeckers, built to take endless head trauma. I mean, evolutionarily, how would that happen?

After head trauma, and this is purely anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth which is about nothing, I think partying (drugs and probably more significantly alcohol) plays a huge role. It could simply be that beer is a diuertic. But I've seen guys that never booze seemingly do fine, and guys who party hard seem to get punchy more readily. It's not like a hard and fast rule, but def seems to trend that way.

And I think heavyweights get less CTE than I would expect, I think maybe because they don't cut.

I am super interested in what other people might think?

 
8 days ago
6/3/10
Posts: 520

I would guess that heavyweights get CTE less since they get knocked out faster.

 

Dudes like BJ, Diego, Leben etc. will be bad. You see a lot of fights where they appear to have a concussion / fighting after being rocked multiple times but stay in the entire fight. 

 

Just looked it up, looks like BJ was punched 1,328 times in the UFC. That is a lot of damage...

8 days ago
2/15/06
Posts: 23784
I worry about Arlovski who has been fighting since 1999.
8 days ago
11/1/03
Posts: 20503
Kirik -
Choked72 - 
Kirik -

I have followed CTE pretty closely, and I don't think it's the monster KOs that does it. I think it's the sub-concussive blows from sparring 3 x a week, for 20 years. So the guys most likely to develop CTE are not going to be obvious from looking at the ass end of highlight reels.

Can you elaborate on what you see as some of the other variables to accelerating CTE?

For example, size/weight class? Lifestyle? Diet? Sport(I assume boxing would be the most impactful)?


The number on contributing factor is head trauma. After that, even for smart people, it's just guess work. For me, it's like making s up.

But,  yah, I think it's the hard sparring. It sort of stands to reason biologically. Via falls, violence, etc, we get hit hugely in the head occassionally during our life. That should leave us f'd to tears. But I don't think we are woodpeckers, built to take endless head trauma. I mean, evolutionarily, how would that happen?

After head trauma, and this is purely anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth which is about nothing, I think partying (drugs and probably more significantly alcohol) plays a huge role. It could simply be that beer is a diuertic. But I've seen guys that never booze seemingly do fine, and guys who party hard seem to get punchy more readily. It's not like a hard and fast rule, but def seems to trend that way.

And I think heavyweights get less CTE than I would expect, I think maybe because they don't cut.

I am super interested in what other people might think?

 

Do fighters wear headgear when sparring? I can't see why they wouldn't.

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 13912
^^Not always.

The new consensus is that headgear does not mitigate brain trauma. It prevents cuts and bruising, but, if anything, increases the likelihood of brain damage.

First, it increases the size of the 'target.' thereby increasing the number of times people get hit. Second, it makes fighters spar more recklessly, because the cost of a head shot feels lower. Third, fighters throw harder when they spar with headgear. These three factors cost more in terms of brain damage than whatever help headgear provides.
8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 13913
Kirik - 
Choked72 - 
Kirik -

I have followed CTE pretty closely, and I don't think it's the monster KOs that does it. I think it's the sub-concussive blows from sparring 3 x a week, for 20 years. So the guys most likely to develop CTE are not going to be obvious from looking at the ass end of highlight reels.

Can you elaborate on what you see as some of the other variables to accelerating CTE?

For example, size/weight class? Lifestyle? Diet? Sport(I assume boxing would be the most impactful)?


The number on contributing factor is head trauma. After that, even for smart people, it's just guess work. For me, it's like making s up.

But,  yah, I think it's the hard sparring. It sort of stands to reason biologically. Via falls, violence, etc, we get hit hugely in the head occassionally during our life. That should leave us f'd to tears. But I don't think we are woodpeckers, built to take endless head trauma. I mean, evolutionarily, how would that happen?

After head trauma, and this is purely anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth which is about nothing, I think partying (drugs and probably more significantly alcohol) plays a huge role. It could simply be that beer is a diuertic. But I've seen guys that never booze seemingly do fine, and guys who party hard seem to get punchy more readily. It's not like a hard and fast rule, but def seems to trend that way.

And I think heavyweights get less CTE than I would expect, I think maybe because they don't cut.

I am super interested in what other people might think?

 

It's an interesting observation about heavyweights.

The science is already pretty conclusive, but I think this is more evidence that concussions and KOs don't cause CTE.

In addition to the lack of weight cutting, I think it has to be a lack of volume. Heavyweights throw less punches and are hit less often.
8 days ago
11/1/03
Posts: 20504
demonsurge -

I would guess that heavyweights get CTE less since they get knocked out faster.

 

Dudes like BJ, Diego, Leben etc. will be bad. You see a lot of fights where they appear to have a concussion / fighting after being rocked multiple times but stay in the entire fight. 

 

Just looked it up, looks like BJ was punched 1,328 times in the UFC. That is a lot of damage...

Think about boxing where getting punched is the whole purpose of fighting. They get hit hundreds of times EVERY fight. MMA is getting much worse now as striking is becoming a big percentage of the fight. I wonder if any studies have been done in boxing on head truma. Is it more common in lighter classes? It seems to me many more boxing deaths occur at the lighter weights, just an observance, i have no idea what the stats are.

Edited: 8 days ago
11/1/03
Posts: 20505
wiggum - ^^Not always.

The new consensus is that headgear does not mitigate brain trauma. It prevents cuts and bruising, but, if anything, increases the likelihood of brain damage.

First, it increases the size of the 'target.' thereby increasing the number of times people get hit. Second, it makes fighters spar more recklessly, because the cost of a head shot feels lower. Third, fighters throw harder when they spar with headgear. These three factors cost more in terms of brain damage than whatever help headgear provides.

I find this hard to believe. Would that mean football players would be better off without helmets? I guess its more complicated than most would think. Amature boxers require headgear so i think many would disagree with you. My guess all contact sports are dangerous and could likely lead to cte. Feel sorry for the athletes who have given so much for their sports only to be robbed of a normal old age.

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 13914
jpm995 - 
wiggum - ^^Not always.

The new consensus is that headgear does not mitigate brain trauma. It prevents cuts and bruising, but, if anything, increases the likelihood of brain damage.

First, it increases the size of the 'target.' thereby increasing the number of times people get hit. Second, it makes fighters spar more recklessly, because the cost of a head shot feels lower. Third, fighters throw harder when they spar with headgear. These three factors cost more in terms of brain damage than whatever help headgear provides.

I find this hard to believe. Would that mean football players would be better off without helmets? I guess its more complicated than most would think. Amature boxers require headgear so i think many would disagree with you. My guess all contact sports are dangerous and could likely lead to cte. Feel sorry for the athletes who have given so much for their sports only to be robbed of a normal old age.


There is actually a fair bit of consensus that less padding would increase the safety of football. Less padding would limit the extent to which football players can use their bodies as projectiles. Generally, it's hard to imagine football possibly being worse on the brain than it currently is.

FWIW, I've been coaching professional MMA for a decade now and I've read and thought about this issue quite a bit because my brain and my fighters' brains depend on it. My views are on the right side of the limited research base.

And boxing is moving toward eliminating head gear. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/sports/olympics/making-olympic-boxing-safer-by-eliminating-head-guards.html
Edited: 8 days ago
10/3/12
Posts: 1507

Lawler. 

8 days ago
11/30/19
Posts: 7

Schaub anyone who listens to the podcasts knows this. 

8 days ago
5/13/10
Posts: 2548
Mandible_Claw -

Diego Sanchez...

Diego was the first to come in my mind sadly. But the thing is, people are different and so are our brains. Some fighters take hell of a punishment in their career and still can put their words together just fine and are in a good mental state. Some people get ruined by that same kind of punishment. I hope Diego and all the others would turn out just fine but combat sports are rough

 

8 days ago
11/1/03
Posts: 20506
wiggum -
jpm995 - 
wiggum - ^^Not always.

The new consensus is that headgear does not mitigate brain trauma. It prevents cuts and bruising, but, if anything, increases the likelihood of brain damage.

First, it increases the size of the 'target.' thereby increasing the number of times people get hit. Second, it makes fighters spar more recklessly, because the cost of a head shot feels lower. Third, fighters throw harder when they spar with headgear. These three factors cost more in terms of brain damage than whatever help headgear provides.

I find this hard to believe. Would that mean football players would be better off without helmets? I guess its more complicated than most would think. Amature boxers require headgear so i think many would disagree with you. My guess all contact sports are dangerous and could likely lead to cte. Feel sorry for the athletes who have given so much for their sports only to be robbed of a normal old age.


There is actually a fair bit of consensus that less padding would increase the safety of football. Less padding would limit the extent to which football players can use their bodies as projectiles. Generally, it's hard to imagine football possibly being worse on the brain than it currently is.

FWIW, I've been coaching professional MMA for a decade now and I've read and thought about this issue quite a bit because my brain and my fighters' brains depend on it. My views are on the right side of the limited research base.

And boxing is moving toward eliminating head gear. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/sports/olympics/making-olympic-boxing-safer-by-eliminating-head-guards.html

Couldn't read the entire article it wants me to create account. Interesting stuff. I would suspect the richer sports like the nfl could afford to research this. They would probably kill the results if the outcome hurt the game. Your view that concussions dont cause cte seems to go against everything we think we know. Frankly i don't understand how its not related.

8 days ago
12/25/12
Posts: 528

Greg Hardy. 

Mma+ NFL=CTE 

It's simple math bro.

8 days ago
11/16/17
Posts: 6919
Kirik -

I have followed CTE pretty closely, and I don't think it's the monster KOs that does it. I think it's the sub-concussive blows from sparring 3 x a week, for 20 years. So the guys most likely to develop CTE are not going to be obvious from looking at the ass end of highlight reels.

I agree with this. 

Idk how justin trains and then goes fighting like that but it's my prime candidate 

8 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 13915
jpm995 - 
wiggum -
jpm995 - 
wiggum - ^^Not always.

The new consensus is that headgear does not mitigate brain trauma. It prevents cuts and bruising, but, if anything, increases the likelihood of brain damage.

First, it increases the size of the 'target.' thereby increasing the number of times people get hit. Second, it makes fighters spar more recklessly, because the cost of a head shot feels lower. Third, fighters throw harder when they spar with headgear. These three factors cost more in terms of brain damage than whatever help headgear provides.

I find this hard to believe. Would that mean football players would be better off without helmets? I guess its more complicated than most would think. Amature boxers require headgear so i think many would disagree with you. My guess all contact sports are dangerous and could likely lead to cte. Feel sorry for the athletes who have given so much for their sports only to be robbed of a normal old age.


There is actually a fair bit of consensus that less padding would increase the safety of football. Less padding would limit the extent to which football players can use their bodies as projectiles. Generally, it's hard to imagine football possibly being worse on the brain than it currently is.

FWIW, I've been coaching professional MMA for a decade now and I've read and thought about this issue quite a bit because my brain and my fighters' brains depend on it. My views are on the right side of the limited research base.

And boxing is moving toward eliminating head gear. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/sports/olympics/making-olympic-boxing-safer-by-eliminating-head-guards.html

Couldn't read the entire article it wants me to create account. Interesting stuff. I would suspect the richer sports like the nfl could afford to research this. They would probably kill the results if the outcome hurt the game. Your view that concussions dont cause cte seems to go against everything we think we know. Frankly i don't understand how its not related.


This article about headgear shouldn't be behind a paywall https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-wearing-headgear-anymore/

Regarding concussions, over the past 5 years, a new consensus has emerged in the scientific community. Repeated head trauma causes CTE. The blows need not be concussive. Concussions are not causal factors of CTE. Here is just a sampling: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/01/18/578355877/repeated-head-hits-not-concussions-may-be-behind-a-type-of-chronic-brain-damage

The NFL has studied the issue and were involved in a huge cover up. There is a Will Smith movie about it.

Currently, the NFL is investigating ways of limiting head trauma, but they have no shown themselves willing to fundamentally alter the nature of the game.
8 days ago
11/28/19
Posts: 13

 

8 days ago
8/15/17
Posts: 254

I wonder how Jeremy Horn’s doing these days. Hopefully he’s all good but man he had a lot of fights.

8 days ago
4/24/14
Posts: 1091

Shogun, Gaethje, Bisping, Hunt...

8 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 14694
Tug Dabone - 

Well, I don't know if Miguelito Marti is "popular" but he might be someone who has risked CTE.

With a 1-41 record, he's been finished 39 times, 18 by KO. 

Trivia fact: Henry Cejudo was the first guy to KO Marti, back in 2013 when Triple C was padding his record by fighting on the rez (4 of Henry's 7 career finishes came in his first 4 fights). Henry moved on. Miguelito didn't.


I just looked this dude up. What the fuck? I've never seen anything like this and it's like three times as bad as Scott Blevins. How the fuck is any commission allowing this guy to fight? He's on a 31 fight losing streak with at least 13 coming by way of TKO or KO. Insane.
8 days ago
3/2/12
Posts: 2622

Roy Nelson has absorbed so many heavyweight shots it's not even funny, surely he's going to deal with some shit later on down the road

8 days ago
10/9/10
Posts: 14696
SHOGUN250 -

Roy Nelson has absorbed so many heavyweight shots it's not even funny, surely he's going to deal with some shit later on down the road

Him, Mir and Arlovski are the big ones that come to mind at HW. These dudes have taken the WORST beatings and have fought 15-20 years. Also Rothwell has taken a ton of damage. 

Edited: 7 days ago
9/24/12
Posts: 1009
Kirik -

I have followed CTE pretty closely, and I don't think it's the monster KOs that does it. I think it's the sub-concussive blows from sparring 3 x a week, for 20 years. So the guys most likely to develop CTE are not going to be obvious from looking at the ass end of highlight reels.

In that case, most of fucking Chute Box

7 days ago
9/4/19
Posts: 57

If the CTE risk was as prevalent as the scientific consensus says we'd have a lot more ex football players walking around with it. A decent size percentage of people play football in high school and college in this country and they go on and have careers and families. At some level the risk is overblown for the hobbyist or student athlete. 

 

However, it may be real for boxing and MMA

7 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 813

I’m becoming more and more skeptical of the significance of CTE. Is it harmless? I doubt it. Is it causing night and day transformations in personality and cognition without any other evidence of brain damage? I don’t think so.