UnderGround Forums Who was the King of Old School MMA?

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 16009

rickson

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8901

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 117569
chief123 - 
Erik Apple -

you would have to give a specific year to get a good answer

This. SEG UFC? Pride? Early Fertitta UFC? when does Old School start and end? 

Vovchachin would have murdered anyone in early UFC, hell he beat Mark Kerr. 

Rickson is not in the discussion, never beat anyone of note. Igor had more fights by 21 than Rickson had in his entire career. And he fought and beat opponents of much higher caliber. Cro Cop pretty much stopped the Vovchanchin  career train with his left leg though. 

And his ko gif of Fransisco Bueno is still one of the best ever. 


Anyone else remember how Grappling Magazine always would mention Bueno and saying other fighters were ducking him?

Ruas was really the first well rounded guy in MMA I remember. 

When he won at UFC 7, he had two submission wins and a TKO. Although Remco counted as a submission, he tapped once Ruas got the mount

13 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20201
theshooter - 

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.




I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson's head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.


I'm a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.


But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.


I don't think Rickson beats killers like Igor.


Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.


13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8904

"But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai."


Masakatsu Funaki was actually younger than Rickson, but I think Funaki's body was more broken down. Funaki started as a pro wrestler at the age of 16. So he was taking bumps on the pro wrestling circuit for years before he started fighting in MMA. He also had a lot more MMA fights prior to fighting Rickson, as compared to the number of fights Rickson had, and he fought higher caliber competition in MMA than Rickson.



Yuki Nakai was a good fighter, but he was much smaller than Rickson, and by the time they fought in Vale Tudo Japan, Nakai was worn out by having to go through two much larger opponents, and he had his eyes gouged by Gerard Gordeau, and ended up going blind in one eye because of it. It is a wonder that Nakai even came out and fought Rickson that night. I don't think that would even happen in today's MMA.

13 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12708
onepunchJD -
theshooter - 

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.




I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson's head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.


I'm a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.


But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.


I don't think Rickson beats killers like Igor.


Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.


Rickson leading with his chin would have produced a highlight to surpass bueno’s vs Igor

13 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20205
theshooter - 

"But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai."


Masakatsu Funaki was actually younger than Rickson, but I think Funaki's body was more broken down. Funaki started as a pro wrestler at the age of 16. So he was taking bumps on the pro wrestling circuit for years before he started fighting in MMA. He also had a lot more MMA fights prior to fighting Rickson, as compared to the number of fights Rickson had, and he fought higher caliber competition in MMA than Rickson.



Yuki Nakai was a good fighter, but he was much smaller than Rickson, and by the time they fought in Vale Tudo Japan, Nakai was worn out by having to go through two much larger opponents, and he had his eyes gouged by Gerard Gordeau, and ended up going blind in one eye because of it. It is a wonder that Nakai even came out and fought Rickson that night. I don't think that would even happen in today's MMA.



Yep.


Funaki was visibly smaller and softer vs Rickson.
IIRC he announced his retirement after that fight.
He came back years later.



As far as Nakai...
I don't think he beats Rickson fresh.
But the toughness he displayed is legendary -- so I always give him an honorable mention.
That shit was like a movie.
13 days ago
5/10/04
Posts: 20206
de braco - 
onepunchJD -
theshooter - 

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.




I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson's head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.


I'm a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.


But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.


I don't think Rickson beats killers like Igor.


Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.


Rickson leading with his chin would have produced a highlight to surpass bueno’s vs Igor



Agreed.


12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8910

Frank Shamrock vs Kazushi Sakuraba could count as an Old School fight since they both started in the 1990's.

11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8916

ttt

Edited: 11 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 2776
theshooter - "It's a shame he was kind of already on the decline when he debuted in Pride and really stepped up in competition."



Igor did pretty well in PRIDE for awhile. He may well have beaten Mark Coleman in the PRIDE Grand Prix if not for the fact that Igor had two fights earlier that night, against Gary Goodridge and Kazushi Sakuraba, while Coleman fought Akira Shoji, but then basically got a bye in the 2nd round when Kazuyuki Fujita came in and immediately had the towel thrown in before he and Coleman even started fighting, due to Fujita having been worn out from his victory over Mark Kerr.


It is too bad that we never got to see Mark Coleman against a fresh Kazuyuki Fujita. That could have been a good fight.

More like thanks/a favor for working the fight against Takada. Fujita could have easily pulled out backstage and an alternate would have jumped in. Starting the fight with a towel throw was essentially a work/throwing the fight to Coleman. It was bullshit. It would be illegal anywhere with a legitimate AC and not a Yakuza/Pro wrestling production. 

11 days ago
2/29/16
Posts: 7222

To me it has always been Royce Gracie.

11 days ago
6/13/04
Posts: 11790
Coleman
11 days ago
6/13/04
Posts: 11791
theshooter - 

" I know Royce was selected by the Gracie family to show Gracie JJ was the superior single martial art because of his smaller and weaker looking stature,"


Royce is actually somewhat tall at 6'1", but yeah, he had a thinner build and did not look like a bulked up muscular guy.


I saw Royce at LAX, he was way bigger in person than I thought he was going to be.
11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8919

"More like thanks/a favor for working the fight against Takada. Fujita could have easily pulled out backstage and an alternate would have jumped in. Starting the fight with a towel throw was essentially a work/throwing the fight to Coleman. It was bullshit. It would be illegal anywhere with a legitimate AC and not a Yakuza/Pro wrestling production."


Even with Fujita walking to the ring and immediately throwing in the towel when the fight was supposed to start, they could have said that that was not really a fight, and brought out an alternate opponent. I am pretty sure that they did have some alternate bouts.

Edited: 11 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8920

"I saw Royce at LAX, he was way bigger in person than I thought he was going to be."


I don't know when you saw him, but he bulked up later on compared to who much he weighed at UFC 1.

10 days ago
5/28/03
Posts: 71745

Unquestionably Vovchanchyn.

He was fighting all the time and beating BJJ black belts, and wrestlers which was insane at the time.

Guy went on a legit 20 fight win streak when most didnt have 20 fights total.

Nobody could make 5'9 215lb Russian kickboxer as a work in the history of the sport before or since the way he did.

10 days ago
3/21/07
Posts: 1279

Renzo but im bias as he was my instructor.

10 days ago
9/20/19
Posts: 2791
theshooter -

"More like thanks/a favor for working the fight against Takada. Fujita could have easily pulled out backstage and an alternate would have jumped in. Starting the fight with a towel throw was essentially a work/throwing the fight to Coleman. It was bullshit. It would be illegal anywhere with a legitimate AC and not a Yakuza/Pro wrestling production."


Even with Fujita walking to the ring and immediately throwing in the towel when the fight was supposed to start, they could have said that that was not really a fight, and brought out an alternate opponent. I am pretty sure that they did have some alternate bouts.

Exactly. It was shady AF. 

Everyone acted like Coleman was the clear #1 after that and then Nog fucking destroyed him lol. 

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 16028
theshooter - 

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.


Igor V was a beast but look what Mario Sperry did to him.

10 days ago
6/12/05
Posts: 292

Murilo Bustamante 

10 days ago
3/17/14
Posts: 2883
Ryazzo - Frank Dux

the greatest ever. no one comes close to what he did on a single night in combat sports!!!!!! 

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 12733
FatBuddha -
theshooter - 

"rickson"


My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.


I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.


Igor V was a beast but look what Mario Sperry did to him.

Sperry had much better takedowns than rickson

10 days ago
1/3/11
Posts: 2322

Marco ruas because he showed the effectiveness of leg kicks