UnderGround Forums Why so Few Catch Wrestling Techniques in MMA?

2 days ago
8/20/08
Posts: 4834

This video shows some excellent moves that looks like it would work in MMA. As far as I know, only Josh Barnett seems to make it work. Why so few fighters with a CW base?

2 days ago
11/24/13
Posts: 4270

How many catch clubs are in your town? How many BJJ clubs are in your town? 

Simple statistics will answer why there's no catch guys in the UFC, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of the sport. Just not as many places teaching it unfortunately. I really wish this would change as the two would bring each other up, look how much wrestling has evolved in BJJ and changed what ADCC looked like in 2019. 

2 days ago
6/14/12
Posts: 5478

A lot of catch and bjj are identical so it gets grouped under an umbrella of bjj ( even though bjj really only happens in a gi, oddly enough )

 

Second. Most people have no clue what catch is or where to train it. 

 

Rip billy robinson

2 days ago
2/18/20
Posts: 145

Very effective.

 

* On a SideNote:  I saw a amateur heavyweight submit another fighter using the third technique late last year at a Cage Wars show in Schenectedy, NY.

2 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 63473

People have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.

2 days ago
2/17/03
Posts: 14578
Kirik - 

People have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.


Agreed.

I think it's important to note that a lot of the best Dagestanti/Caucasian wrestlers have been very heavily influenced by the top rides of American folkstyle wrestling. (And I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just adding to it). Watch Khabib's top game evolve over the years--very clearly influenced by DC.

Freestyle wrestling doesn't really have a spiral ride or wrist rides. Folkstyle does. And once the Russians started learning those rides -- at AKA, at Ricardo Almeida's, etc. -- they became much, much better.
1 day ago
10/11/05
Posts: 48473
Guess it should be no surprise that submissions billed as "secret" look like they suffer from a serious lack of peer review.

(Criticism applies to the posted series of moves, not catch/wrestling/bjj/judo/etc.)
Edited: 1 day ago
9/20/19
Posts: 2095

I like a catch a lot. There’s a lot of great concepts. Most of the “experts” are contrarian types who would be average at best jiu-jitsu competitors. That way they can be like, well “you wouldnt beat me if pins were allowed”. The typical “too dangerous to spar” type excuse. 

Conceptually and technically there are some gems within catch if you know what you’re looking for. The modern leg sub game in sub grappling is almost all catch based. The standup/takedown game being shown at the average catch seminar is atrocious. It’s like watching guys wrestle on some degraded old film reel from 1900 or they look like ridiculous wwf moves. 

Where catch is at a huge huge deficit in 2020 is there hasn’t been legitimate catch competition in a century. bjj, the rest of wrestling, Judo, sambo etc have been honed and progressed by 100 years of competition and preparation. Catch turned into a soap opera stunt show geared towards little kids, chubby dorks in their 30’s and the developmentally disabled. 

1 day ago
2/17/03
Posts: 14581
HillboFrateTrane - 

I like a catch a lot. There’s a lot of great concepts. Most of the “experts” are contrarian types who would be average at best jiu-jitsu competitors. That way they can be like, well “you wouldnt beat me if pins were allowed”. The typical “too dangerous to spar” type excuse. 

Conceptually and technically there are some gems within catch if you know what you’re looking for. The modern leg sub game in sub grappling is almost all catch based. The standup/takedown game being shown at the average catch seminar is atrocious. It’s like watching guys wrestle on some degraded old film reel from 1900. 

Where catch is at a huge huge deficit in 2020 is there hasn’t been legitimate catch competition in a century. bjj, the rest of wrestling, Judo, sambo etc have been honed and progressed by 100 years of competition and preparation. Catch turned into a soap opera stunt show geared towards little kids, chubby dorks in their 30’s and the developmentally disabled. 


Great post.

The best catch influenced grapplers in recent times were all heavily influenced by other disciplines, open-minded, and friendly to competition. (Paulson, Barnett, Hume, Neil Melanson, etc.)
1 day ago
10/9/15
Posts: 571

Its not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it.  Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.

1 day ago
2/17/03
Posts: 14584
BusterBluth - 

Its not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it.  Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.


Of course. But, all wrestling styles are changed based on rules. If you grow up wrestling folkstyle, your bottom game has to change dramatically when you move to freestyle.
1 day ago
1/1/01
Posts: 23604

The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.

Edited: 1 day ago
1/1/01
Posts: 37185
wiggum -
Kirik - 

People have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.


Agreed.

I think it's important to note that a lot of the best Dagestanti/Caucasian wrestlers have been very heavily influenced by the top rides of American folk wrestling. (And I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just adding to it). Watch Khabib's top game evolve over the years--very clearly influenced by DC.

Free wrestling doesn't really have a spiral ride or wrist rides. Folk does. And once the Russians started learning those rides -- at AKA, at Ricardo Almeida's, etc. -- they became much, much better.

Its worth pointing out that folk began in the 20's and it sounds like all the dangers of catch had to be removed so wrestling could be a sport safe enough to offer in colleges and high schools. It got to the point I'd say 99% of folk guys have no catch knowledge that someone like Saku or Barnett would have.

Folk has for sure influenced Khabib's MMA free wrestling, judo and sambo base. Add up everything he does and he is sort of "cutting ege" in his MMA grappling.

Meanwhile Tony's folk base has been heavily influenced by the 10th Planet BJJ system. His versatility is on display in a very different way.

I think both Khabib and Tony are pretty versatile out there and and show a wider variety of techniques tailored for MMA than the 1st gen of fighters from folk, judo, BJJ bases.

1 day ago
1/1/01
Posts: 37186
Wiggy -

The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.

Your lucky Matt can't compete in the next ADCC, no can defend Farmer Burns ghost in the corner.

1 day ago
10/9/15
Posts: 572
wiggum -
BusterBluth - 

Its not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it.  Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.


Of course. But, all wrestling styles are changed based on rules. If you grow up wrestling folkstyle, your bottom game has to change dramatically when you move to freestyle.

Right, and since catch wrestling is being discussed it might be a good idea to point out that these "super secret" techniques as mentioned above, are in fact the subtlties that make catch wrestling what it is.

1 day ago
8/27/08
Posts: 6025

Grappling is grappling, it’s the rules that differ

1 day ago
2/17/03
Posts: 14586
^^Good posts all around.
1 day ago
6/4/06
Posts: 9282

ttt

1 day ago
10/27/03
Posts: 25715
Wiggy -

The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.

Are we still waiting a few years until their students take over ADCC?

Im just not clear on that,

Edited: 1 day ago
9/20/19
Posts: 2099
FingerorMoon -
Wiggy - The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.
 

Are we still waiting a few years until their students take over ADCC?

Im just not clear on that,

10th planet was also set to take over no-gi and mma. 

1 day ago
1/1/01
Posts: 23610
FingerorMoon - 
Wiggy -

The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.

Are we still waiting a few years until their students take over ADCC?

Im just not clear on that,


It all fell apart when:

#1 - Tony Cecchine went nuts.

#2 - The truth behind Matt Furey's "tapped him like a typewriter" ad copy story got out that the Steve Maxwell purple belt he tapped weighed like 100lbs less than Matt, had just finished an intense workout, was apparently a teenager, and oh, by the way, Matt punched him (I think in the face?) after they'd agreed to grappling only.

1 day ago
9/14/19
Posts: 739

Because it's pretty fake and scarce 

It was barely ever talked about it until after Brazilian jiujistu hit the scene

im sure wrestling was real Mma in the oldest history but no one today knows that history even if they say they do. Any of the people they speak of today I'm not convinced those guys were real fighters. It's probably some names we never ever heard of and neither did the historians ever here of them

 

history is about events that never happened told by people who weren't there 

1 day ago
2/10/20
Posts: 684
Connorwinztharematch -

A lot of catch and bjj are identical so it gets grouped under an umbrella of bjj ( even though bjj really only happens in a gi, oddly enough )

 

Second. Most people have no clue what catch is or where to train it. 

 

Rip billy robinson

lol @ bjj "only hppens in a gi".

 

What a retarded post.
Yeah that whole "No Gi BJJ" is a myth....

1 day ago
2/17/03
Posts: 14587
MMA Experience - 

Because it's pretty fake and scarce 

It was barely ever talked about it until after Brazilian jiujistu hit the scene

im sure wrestling was real Mma in the oldest history but no one today knows that history even if they say they do. Any of the people they speak of today I'm not convinced those guys were real fighters. It's probably some names we never ever heard of and neither did the historians ever here of them

 

history is about events that never happened told by people who weren't there 


What do you think explains Sakuraba, Josh Barnett, Paulson, and Hume?
1 day ago
9/20/19
Posts: 2100
MMA Experience -

Because it's pretty fake and scarce 

It was barely ever talked about it until after Brazilian jiujistu hit the scene

im sure wrestling was real Mma in the oldest history but no one today knows that history even if they say they do. Any of the people they speak of today I'm not convinced those guys were real fighters. It's probably some names we never ever heard of and neither did the historians ever here of them

 

history is about events that never happened told by people who weren't there 

That is bullshit.